« how_i_feel_about_my_re.xls | Main | Can't work. Too easy. »
01/10/2004
Duly noted
Here are some quick notes from this morning's appointment for an ultrasound and bloodwork.
Time, gentlemen
Eight patients went in before I did. Did they all have appointments before me? If so, how did the staff expect to see eight patients before 8:30? They'd have had to start at 5:50 to get them all in, with 20 minutes per patient.
"All the other patients were running late," the nurse confided when I complained. I guess it's more important to indulge the inconsiderate by pushing everyone back than it is to reward the punctual by, you know, not making me wait almost an hour and a half to be seen.
Two mommies. And another two mommies. And another two mommies. And...
The interesting thing about seeing lesbian couples at an infertility clinic is that most of them aren't actually infertile, in need of big bad science to conceive. Most of them just need a kindly, impersonal squirt — and most of them have a reasonable expectation that they'll succeed.
This is the difference, easily noticeable in the waiting room on weekends. There's still a pall of despair hanging over the place thanks to freaks like me, but the several chatty lesbian couples I saw this morning were doing their best to lift it — talking, smiling, acting perfectly normal. They made me enormously happy and reminded me that despite everything that's happened, I am still hopeful. It was so refreshing, so unusual to see ordinary cheerfulness in this place, that I considered going over to thank them.
But not even I am that much of a dork.
Actual dialogue
Julie: Oof. Yes.
Doctor: Sorry about that.
Julie, trying to be game: Can't be helped.
Doctor: Sure it can.
Julie: Then knock it off.
The outlook
Um, which one are you again?
An exhaustive list of the questions my doctor asked about my consultation at Cornell
Maybe I'm too stupid to be allowed to reproduce
This is precisely why my preference for black underpants is wise as well as stylish.
Posted by Julie at 01:19 PM in Notes from astride the stirrups | Permalink
Comments (48)
Dear Julie,
Is it really so bad to adopt lovely children that need home and love? Why put yourself through so much pain and suffering and prodding. You sound so intelligent and you write so beautifully. YOu would be a wonderful mommy for any child and they would love you and you would love them back regardless of whether she/he came out of you. It just makes me sad to see that adoption is the last resort for couples and that they are willing to go through hell before adopting some needy child.
Posted by: Curious at Jan 10, 2004 3:18:22 PM
OUCH! Curious, that was a bith harsh. Some of us are trying both, infertility treatment AND adoption. As a matter of fact, the reasons why we needed fertility treatment in the first place (my husband's health) makes it harder, if not impossible for us to adopt: they rejected us based on my husband's health and I basically have to apply as a single parent.
It's easy for you to just drop in, write a comment and leave, but those of us who come here everyday, who *KNOW* the pain attached to all these procedures totally understand. It's very easy to say "just adopt". But do you have any idea where we are coming from? Since you seem to make assumptions about us, let me make one about you: you either had kids without any problems, or you don't have kids at all. Either way, if you had gone through just one tenth of what some of us have gone through, you wouldn't have written a comment like that
Posted by: virginia at Jan 10, 2004 3:52:22 PM
Curious,
I'm an adoptive mother who chose not to do any invasive assisted reproduction procedures, but I would NEVER in my wildest DREAMS begin to prostelitize to anyone about my or their choices, especially someone who is brave enough to share the story of their journey so beautifully and generously.
We all wish there were less suffering in the world. Unfortunately, when someone like you expresses doubts about someone else's very personal decisions, the suffering is not abated, if you get my drift.
Everyone, and I mean everyone, has a right to, and must, follow their own path. It is not right for any one of us to attempt to direct another. Offer support, say you hope they achieve what they are wanting to achieve, say you are happy with the choices you've made, that's all valid. But I'd avoid attempting to redirect someone else; though you mean well, at best it is rude, and at worst, cruel and demoralizing.
Posted by: Mollie at Jan 10, 2004 3:55:28 PM
This was supposed to be a lighthearted entry about how my RE, on CD3 scan day, always asks, "And you need to use the bathroom, right?" before my scan. And how one time I said no, forgetting about the tampon.
But then Curious pissed me off.
Curious, from the tone of your note I would assume that you've not had to deal with infertility? Because if you had, you'd know that adoption is not a last resort, but simply another step on the journey that must be taken when you and your partner are ready. But I ASSume that as long as there are needy children out there, there will also be self-righteous, sanctimonious folks to remind us infertile gals of that fact. Thanks for the tip, but I don't take advice from people like you.
Sorry for the sidetrack, Julie; I know you can defend yourself just fine on your own. And, for future reference, there isn't room for both a lightdays tampon and an ultrasound probe.
Posted by: runnerwoman at Jan 10, 2004 3:56:24 PM
You know what's really weird? I was just thinking last night about how amazing it is that in the last few weeks since discovering the wonderful world of your blog, and others in a similar vein, I hadn't read a single "spoiler" comment. Well, you know, speak of the DEVIL and (s)he will appear!!
Posted by: Mollie at Jan 10, 2004 4:10:05 PM
Curious, I am curious to know if this is your first visit to Julie's blog? It must be, because if you were a regular here, you would know better. Hell, fuck that, even if this is your first visit, you should know better than to say something like "that" to anyone, much less Julie, a woman we are extremely protective of. My advice to you, read her blog, from the beginning. And think before you post!
Posted by: Shelba at Jan 10, 2004 4:21:07 PM
Shelba, You took the words right from my mouth...er fingertips!
When I read Curious's comment, I was stung from the insult on Julie's behalf because I *HAVE* been reading Julie's blog from the beginning. The first thought I had was "GROAN. One of THOSE people."
I just want to say that I'm not experiencing anything like what you lovely women are going (or have been) through. I stumbled upon Getupgrrl's Chez Miscarriage and was touched by her humor and plight. Then, through getupgrrl, I found Julie's blog. I can't adequately express my emotions when I read the posts. I feel sorrow, I laugh, I hope for the best for you all. Even after reading every entry and getting to know you each a little, I have never presumed to think I can understand what you're going through and for God's sake, I'd never open my trap and offer up suggestions like Curious did. It's just preposterous!
Posted by: Amanda at Jan 10, 2004 4:59:16 PM
Julie-
You made me remember the cd 3 plight like it was just this morning. The hope and the nerves. I hope you are relaxing on the sofa with a bug mug of cocoa and a thick book.
I hope Curious has learned a lesson about such horrific commentary.
xoxoxo
Posted by: Heather at Jan 10, 2004 5:09:42 PM
Julie,
I have only had relief from reading your website. I am in almost exactly the same boat as you. Almost exactly the same clinical course.
I have just run across this SCSA test at INCIID. My RE's have never run this and I wonder what you think of it (sperm fragmentation). I have no idea but plan to harass my RE on Monday. Any thoughts?
Thanks for making the pain a little more bearable.
Posted by: tia at Jan 10, 2004 5:47:53 PM
oh, get over yourselves!!!!! The population of the world is increasing at an alarming rate yet you people spend thousands to bring another child into this world by going through hellish procedures. all of you are so defensive. I feel truly sorry for your husbands or boyfriends, you must bite their headS off, anytime they express an opinion. So you think passing your precious genes on is worth all this pain and suffering. Let me tell you I just expressed an opinion that a lot of other people share with me. I guess you just don't want to hear other perspectives. That's fine, live in your bubble, feel sorry for yourself and jumo at anyone's throat who even questions what you are doing. All this stress certainly won't get you pregnant. Do a good deed, adopt a child and maybe then, you just might get pregnant. It happens all the time, because half the reason why many women can't conceive is the psychological stress they are under. I"ve said my piece and I won't be coming back here again. You guys are too angry and jaded for me. even though Julie is a damn good writer, I have to say.
Posted by: Curious and amused at Jan 10, 2004 11:08:56 PM
Well! I think that went brilliantly, don't you?!
Posted by: Julie at Jan 10, 2004 11:52:30 PM
Dear Curious,
This is a nightmare, right? The one where the offensive person making EVERY ignorant, insensitive comment I've ever heard invades my infertility support network?
The only thing that could be worse is if you were a crack-smoking, abusive single mother with an income of $.04 per year who got pregnant on accident and is going to beat her child to death within two months of bringing it home.
Don't tell me if you are, please. I really don't need that kind of stress in my life. I'm trying to relax, here, after all.
Posted by: Kendra at Jan 11, 2004 12:33:05 AM
Ding dong the witch is dead....er...(s)he's gone...
Takes a lot of nerve to come to someone else's blog, mouth off and then retreat....
But if you don't have to do ART, I guess you can have that perspective, huh? You don't have to worry about finances, voodoo medical care, your future....I could go on, but you know where I am going...
Posted by: whatabout it at Jan 11, 2004 8:16:16 AM
I don't think Curious read my comment. After all, I wasn't at all defensive about my or anyone else's "right to ART," since I personally never undertook it, but I would certainly stand by my statement that it's for each of us to take our own path.
Once you are infertile, you have a few options. They are all challenging, to say the least. And from the outside, it's easy to judge one person's choice of options, but believe me, they're all a freakout in their own way. It's all "involved," you get "poked and prodded" in one way or another. It's unavoidable. Worst of all, you're treated with suspicion, you're open to the jugdement of others in a way fertile people never are, you become a visible, painfully slow-mo vision of a deliberate path to parenthood. And everyone's got something to say about it.
Why is ART any more "selfish" than having a baby the old-fashioned way? I really don't get that idea. I mean, if the end result is a bio-kid, how is it any different than someone who just has missionary sex and reproduces? Oh, the costs? Well, what the hell? Maybe the ART parents will spend a little less on nursery furniture 'cause they're all tapped out. Money is money, folks, and parenthood is something a lot of people would like to experience. Why should anyone care whether you spend extra money getting pregnant versus spending extra money later on in the form of accessoires, tuition, God knows what. People who choose ART are no more "selfish" than anyone else.... it's a bizarre term to use. "Determined," maybe, since it takes a lot of that; "brave" is a good one, too.
Look, I adopted. It was challenging for me. I wanted that kid more than anything. I wanted a kid so much that I couldn't bear the thought of "maybe." So I went with "for sure." But the adoption process was hell in its own way. For me. Great result, but the process was arduous and expensive and emotionally draining. And at times, I felt like I was "selfish" in my own way. My husband wanted a bio-kid but I wasn't willing to do what the doctors told me, so I insisted on adoption. Again, great result in the end, our son is the light of our lives, etc, but I was selfish. I wanted what I wanted. I didn't do a good deed. I wanted to be a mom. It WAS selfish. The good deed part is kind of a bonus.
Now I am pregnant, and it's because my husband had surgery. He was clinically infertile, and had a very painful, horrible operation that I told him I wouldn't have subjected myself to. He did it before we adopted. But now we are pregnant, and it's a lot easier than adoption, that's for sure. And a lot more private. It's a luxury; I understand that now. It's a miracle, and a gift. I am grateful now to my husband, even though I was horrified by the self-sacrificing lengths he was willing to go to when he had that surgery.
Now hear this: WE ARE NOT PREGNANT BECAUSE WE ADOPTED. We are pregnant because my husband had an expensive, out-of-pocket, not-covered-by-insurance, painful, elective operation.
We made difficult, personal choices. There were OURS, damnit!! How about a little respect for everyone's right to make their own choices?? How about that?
"Defensive" is what you'll get when you challenge that right.
THAT RIGHT IS WORTH DEFENDING.
Posted by: Mollie at Jan 11, 2004 12:04:03 PM
FYI, regarding the husbands and boyfriends (or partners, in some cases) - do you not think they made the decision to proceed with this treatment along with us? What exactly do you imagine happened? The doctor said, "Sorry, you'll need treatment to get pregnant," the husband/boyfriend/partner said, "Let's adopt" and we steamrolled right over him and said, "FUCK YOU! We're having our OWN baby, and I don't care what you think! Now drop those drawers and give me your sperm." Yes, that would definitely work.
You are a total moron, clearly dropping in to troll and stir emotions in a pot you have never cooked in yourself (though I'd happily find a pan to fry you in).
FYI - my husband and I tried on our own for a long time. We finally went to the doctor and did numerous tests. From the beginning, we knew that if we didn't get pregnant on our own, we were going to adopt, there was NO question about it, not even up for discussion. All of our tests were going well - his tests, my tests. Then they did something called a post-coital. The doctor, without even warning us, called us in to the lab and said, "Look under the microscope. See? No swimming sperm - that's the problem. Separately maybe you could get pregnant. Together, you're going to need help."
Well, in that very second, without even thinking about it or talking to each other, we both looked at the doctor and said, "What do we do next?" There was no question for either of us that we didn't want to vigorously pursue having a biological child.
Have we completely ruled out adoption in the future? DEFINITELY not. But how dare you presume to know us when you have never had your feet in our stirrups.
Curious and amused, you are a troll of the worst order, and I'm **almost** sorry I responded.
Oh. Wait. No I'm not, you asshat.
Posted by: Liz at Jan 11, 2004 12:12:47 PM
Jesus gay, did our friend Curious touch a nerve.
Wait, that's not quite right.
If I am to be a stickler for accuracy, I should say that Curious shredded every dendrite within a five-mile radius with a rusty Garden Weasel.
On the one hand, I'm feeling slightly bruised that someone decided to use this space — a place where I've intentionally made myself vulnerable — to criticize the very difficult choices my friends and I have grappled with.
On the other hand, I knew when I put my journal online that not everyone who read it would be sympathetic.
And I feel okay about that. While I can't say I think much of the tack Curious took, it's a valid question to ask, one I ask myself at every new phase of treatment.
But I don't owe answers to anyone but myself.
In talking about my experiences, my main goal is catharsis. My secondary goal is to let women like me know they're not alone. Way, way down on the list is the possibility that people who aren't infertile might stumble across my journal and begin to understand a situation I hope they never face themselves. In that last, in this instance, I've apparently failed — but as long as I meet the first two objectives, I'm satisfied.
Though I don't think it was particularly polite to ask such questions of anyone, and certainly not in such a hectoring tone, I have a lot to say on the issues Curious raised. No one is entitled to an explanation. I'm comfortable in my position, most of the time, and feel little need to justify it to others. But I'll write about it soon, for the sake of honesty and completeness, no matter how ill-intentioned the provocation.
Thank you, my friends. I am so grateful to have such a sharp group of women protecting my pale, flabby flanks.
Posted by: Julie at Jan 11, 2004 1:15:55 PM
I wanted to let you know that this blog has brought hope and down right "pee in my pants" laughter..I MC in October after 3 years of trying. I thank you for being so open and sharing your heart with us jaded and angry gals!
Posted by: Magnolya at Jan 11, 2004 2:01:57 PM
Hi there--I'm a lurker on your blog and having read Curious's post, I just wanted to say thanks so much for everything that you share with us. My infertility issues often make me feel inadequate and lonely--espeicially knowing that there are people out there like Curious. Thanks for hanging tough and telling it like it is for those of us who aren't always as brave.
Another apparently angry and jaded gal,
Jacquie
Posted by: Jacquie at Jan 11, 2004 3:34:14 PM
Julie says, "Way, way down on the list is the possibility that people who aren't infertile might stumble across my journal and begin to understand a situation I hope they never face themselves. In that last, in this instance, I've apparently failed"
No, you haven't failed. You have given ME a better understanding of a situation I have never experienced. You have helped me learn ideal responses to grief and ways to offer comfort. You have shown me how ignorance hurts. You've educated me. I'd like to think there are more people like me than people like Curious who have stumbled across this blog and have become informed as a result.
Family matters - whether to have children, whether to adopt, whether to try medical procedures, grieving processes over miscarriage, etc - are the PARENTS personal choice and it's *nobody elses business*. Period.
Posted by: Amanda at Jan 11, 2004 3:37:28 PM
Because I'm feeling like a smart ass.....
What not to say when the social worker handling your homestudy asks you why you want to adopt:
This one should be said doing your best Miss America contestant impersonation.
1. "Because the world's population is increasing at an alarming rate. And I don't want to contribute to the overpopulation problem."
This one should be said while you nervously clutch one of those novelty stress balls.
2. "Basically, the stress I feel about the overpopulation problem has stressed me out to the point that my eggs are too uptight to allow my sperm donor husband's boys to penetrate my "fort". I figure that if I get the adoption ball rolling, my girls will let their guard down and allow me to finally pass on my precious genes."
3. "Because I need one more good deed to get that good samaritan coffee mug. It was a toss between making a donation to Oprah's Angel Network or adopting. I flipped a coin and Baby won!"
Here is where the social worker would do her best Seinfeld Soup Nazi impersonation and say, "No baby for you. NEXT!"
Posted by: Shelba at Jan 11, 2004 4:42:57 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
Shelba, I love you!! LOVE YOU!!! Tears streaming down my face.
Posted by: Mollie at Jan 11, 2004 5:20:21 PM
I am so, so pleased to find that Curious has been dealt with by women with such grace, eloquence, and... dare I say it? Determination.
I'm not infertile, either, but that hasn't made my path to building a family any easier. And Julie, I think you're reaching more people than you could possibly realize. The fact that only one Curious popped in on this whole discussion speaks volumes.
And Shelba, you crack me up! If we do decide to pursue adoption in the future, I'll be sure to practice my homestudy answers in advance!
Posted by: Julia at Jan 11, 2004 5:43:31 PM
Shelba - you rock, I've got your blog in my favorites now, too.
Posted by: Liz at Jan 11, 2004 6:01:43 PM
I spent all day sternly telling myself I would not rise to the challenge of answering Curious (or sink, as the case may be), but I'm finally giving in. If I had more sense, I'd just mutter something angry about ass clowns and forget it, but, well, some days I'm not that smart.
Curious wrote: Is it really so bad to adopt lovely children that need home and love?
No. It's not bad at all. But is it really so evil that I want what comes to most others without effort? Is it really so twisted, this very basic human desire?
Why put yourself through so much pain and suffering and prodding?
You could just as easily ask an adopting couple why they put themselves through so much, and their answer would be the same as mine: Because we have a vision of the family we want to become. And in the end we have faith that it will have been worth it
Let's be clear on this: If you're infertile but want a family, it's going to be difficult and you're going to get hurt. No matter what, no matter how you decide to go about it. Period.
Curious makes an assumption that's just a little too prevalent for my liking, that adoption is intrinsically easier and less painful than pursuing fertility treatment. It's a different kind of pain, to be sure, but don't kid yourself that it's any less terrifying to open your life up to bureaucratic scrutiny, or to make yourself vulnerable to the choices of a birth mother, or to endure the casual racism of strangers.
If you want a family but biology won't cooperate, you're in for it, no matter what. The best you can hope for is that the end will justify the means.
What I've written makes adoption seem like a labyrinth of horrors. I know it needn't be, thanks in large part to Dawn. But I resent the assumption that it's a gay little cakewalk and a no-brainer of a decision to boot. If it's so easy, why don't fertile people routinely adopt instead of enduring those pesky labor pains?
It just makes me sad to see that adoption is the last resort for couples and that they are willing to go through hell before adopting some needy child.
Well, I'm sorry my very personal choices make you sad. But I'm sorrier still that you feel entitled to pass judgment on them.
oh, get over yourselves!!!!! The population of the world is increasing at an alarming rate yet you people spend thousands to bring another child into this world by going through hellish procedures.
I'm trying to parse which of these objections is the strongest and most worthy of rebuttal.
Is it overpopulation? Ridiculous. It's absurd to speak of overpopulation among infertile people — I assure you we're not the source of the problem. If you're truly concerned about overpopulation, your time might be better spent working to improve education and access to birth control and abortion — it'll be much more effective than your attempts to shame women into making a choice that for whatever reason doesn't feel right to them.
Is it the money? It's nice of you to be concerned about my finances, but, really, we can afford it. Again, your concern is misplaced; if you're interested in the financial angle of the family-building game, perhaps you might advocate more affordable access to adoption.
Is it the "hellish procedures"? Okay, got me there. But I can look out for myself, thanks.
all of you are so defensive. I feel truly sorry for your husbands or boyfriends, you must bite their headS off, anytime they express an opinion.
Oh, see, now why'd you have to get personal?
Of course we're defensive. You're a stranger who stomped in without so much as a by-your-leave and immediately began scolding us about the most intimate choices some of us will ever make.
Did you truly expect to change anyone's mind that way? If you had an honest interest in persuasion, you went about it badly. If your intention was to attack, you shouldn't be surprised when we put up a fight.
And about our husbands and boyfriends: I can't be sure, but I think I detect just a delicate whiff of misogyny in that line. I won't take that bait. I won't take that bait.
So you think passing your precious genes on is worth all this pain and suffering.
My "precious" genes are no more precious than anyone else's, and no less — including those of fertile people. Do you lecture them, too? Or do they get a free pass?
So far, I can handle the pain and suffering, thanks in large part to my friends here and their kindness in listening as I work it all out. Only my husband and I can decide when we've had enough, and I trust that we'll recognize that if we come to it.
Let me tell you I just expressed an opinion that a lot of other people share with me.
But why did you express that opinion? Why do you feel entitled to pass judgment? Other people's reproductive decisions are none of your business.
As for "a lot of other people," I'm quite sure you're right. I'm sure a lot of people agree with you — happily, most of them are too polite to voice their views so intrusively. As long as we're offering each other advice, here's a bit of rhetorical finesse for you: Don't invoke the faceless hordes to prop up your argument. It only makes you look weak and unsure when you try to fall back on shadowy reinforcements.
I guess you just don't want to hear other perspectives. That's fine, live in your bubble, feel sorry for yourself and jumo at anyone's throat who even questions what you are doing.
Well, when you get right down to it, that's true: I don't want to hear other perspectives. Or more accurately, I don't want to hear the opinion of an ill-mannered stranger who presumes to know better than I do what's right for me.
All this stress certainly won't get you pregnant. Do a good deed, adopt a child and maybe then, you just might get pregnant. It happens all the time, because half the reason why many women can't conceive is the psychological stress they are under.
Ahahahahaha, I don't even know where to start with this one.
Yes, my infertility is the result of stress. And my abominable selfishness. And my lamentable smallness. That's what all the doctors say, in fact, immediately pooh-poohing my timid questions about the limited motility of my husband's sperm and the extensive adhesions in my pelvis.
And the idea that I should "do a good deed" in order to get pregnant is, well, disgusting. An adopted child isn't a fertility totem, isn't a means to an end, isn't iron-clad proof of a saintly altruism. Now who's devaluing adoption, hmmmm?
I"ve said my piece and I won't be coming back here again. You guys are too angry and jaded for me. even though Julie is a damn good writer, I have to say.
Thanks. Now can I get "a damn good jaded angry writer"?
Posted by: Julie at Jan 11, 2004 10:10:00 PM
Ack!!!! I wander in here for a little Sunday night relaxation because I love Julie and find her every entry a wonderful thing to behold and what do I find? CRAZY PEOPLE HAVE INVADED HER BLOG!!!! How did this happen???? Who are these people????
And Julie, what do you MEAN an adopted child isn't a fertility totem? Nobody told me that! In fact, everyone (including my father) has made it very clear that if I go buy a baby that I WILL get pregnant. If this isn't true then, dammit, the whole thing is OFF!
Posted by: Dawn at Jan 11, 2004 10:47:36 PM
Amen, Hallelujah, Glory Glory.
Posted by: Mollie at Jan 11, 2004 11:06:46 PM
Oh, wait, I also wanted to say that even though I'm glad we all got to solidly solidify our solidarity, thanks to the curious troll, I'm a little sad that your very funny and poignant post kind of got trampled underfoot. It was quite wonderful. I mean, scary! Jesus, you've got to remind the doc of your own protocol? I think that takes patient responsibility a little too far.... I love the stuff about the time. I can just see you, polite to the core, taking that in. "Everyone else was running late... so those of us who show up on time are... punished. Okaaaay, thanks for the information...."
See, in this state, we now have a concealed weopons law! I think this is why.
Posted by: Mollie at Jan 11, 2004 11:14:21 PM
Ha, thanks! Really, I only thought I wanted to talk about forgetting to put in a tampon. Who knew that my real intent was to say that adoption is evil?
Damn those hidden agendas.
Posted by: Julie at Jan 12, 2004 8:59:09 AM
FYI - For some, a tampon IS a concealed weapon ;).
Posted by: Liz at Jan 12, 2004 2:24:55 PM
I have been "lurking" for about 2 weeks now, and I totally admire Julie's honesty and determination. I have had 2 lovely children with no problems whatsoever, so Julie, you have fulfilled your 3rd objective through me as well. You have made me laugh and cry; I wish you the best and I hope your desire to have a child is realized this year.
XO
Posted by: Deanna at Jan 12, 2004 4:21:15 PM
Julie,
Your responses are so eloquent and perfect. You are so hilariously hyperarticulate that you are able to verbalize this morass of emotions that I cannot even communicate myself. I have taken to referring friends and family to your website so they can get the jist of why I am 'not quite [my]self lately' and seem hypersensitive to every 'suggestion.' I have questioned and second-guessed every step of the way, and other people's doubts are not helpful. And to this sanctimonious poster is concerned, do you honestly think that people have not heard of adoption and don't know the pros and cons? Did you honestly think Julie was going to day, "Of course, adoption, I hadn't thought of that." Naturally you didn't, you just wanted to make sure she felt bad for pursuing the dream of rearing a good person in the face of adversity. I hope you never know the pain that many of us do. I cannot wish this on anyone.
Posted by: tia at Jan 12, 2004 6:09:44 PM
You want I should break her (the Curious commenter) legs?
Posted by: Andreah at Jan 12, 2004 7:07:04 PM
Perhaps this isn't a good time to warn you that the stupid advice from total strangers doesn't exactly stop once a woman becomes visibly pregnant?
Posted by: Shamhat at Jan 12, 2004 7:11:52 PM
Aggg, shit, Samhat.
At least once I'm pregnant maybe I'll be able to meet unwanted advice with a complacent, heavy-lidded smile instead of my current response, a hormone-jacked snarl.
Andrea, I want you on my All-Star All-Girl Team of Thugs. I'm working on the uniforms now.
Tia, thanks. I realize I didn't answer your question about SCSA — it sort of got lost in the morass. I'll be interested to hear what conclusion you came to about it, as my understanding is that it's rather controversial. I know my RE doesn't give it any credence at all...but then we all know what I think these days of my RE. Good luck to you.
Posted by: Julie at Jan 13, 2004 9:16:04 AM
Oh, Ill be on that team most definately!.. I just need a cool tough, street nick-name like, "Andy the Aardvark"... no,no... too high school mascot sounding... how about, "A - the Leg Spreader"...hmm... intersting but lacks a certain something... Im thinking.... im thinking...
any suggestions?
Posted by: Andreah at Jan 13, 2004 12:39:50 PM
Ok - I had to add my 2 cents here even though Curious claims she won't be back to read them. What nerve does she have to say that we are "selfish" for wanting a bio child - and not only that - this person obviously has NO CLUE how expensive it is to adopt. For us we have insurance for IVF so it's been minimal as far as laying out cash - but adoption is $15-25,000 and unless you are a movie star and have some super connections - you are not going to get a child very quickly. Curious makes it sound like you can pull up to a 'BABY DRIVE THRU' and order up your child with a side of fries. NOT.
I swear - some people have NO clue and need to walk a mile in our TTC shoes before opening their traps!
Big hugs to you Julie and everyone else reading this! +++++ thoughts.
Patti
IVF #1 - BFN
IVF #2 - chemical pg
3 failed iui's
1st FET this Friday!!
Posted by: Patti at Jan 13, 2004 2:58:29 PM
As far as the sperm fragmentation test, my RE has managed to convince me, for now, that it is useless, since he has seen many of these 'high fragmentation' guys get pregnant and the test is only done by one person in one lab, i.e. non-reproducible results.
Who knows? You make my day. :)
Posted by: tia at Jan 13, 2004 6:39:27 PM
Wow, Curious, so is that why you adopted? Because of the rate at which the world's population is growing? I mean, I have to assume that you have in fact adopted - otherwise, you'd just be a hypocrite so thick-skulled that you can't see past the inanity of your own argument. So tell me - how many children have you adopted in order to avoid contributing to the world's overpopulation?
... ... ... still waiting ... ... ...
While I'm waiting to hear all about your adoption, Curious, I'll just go ahead and collect some of the empirical science that demonstrates that "stress" and anxiety do not, in fact, impede pregnancy rates in any way. I know that you'll want to read the articles, in order to avoid sounding so profoundly ignorant in the future.
By the way - our "husbands and boyfriends" also think you're a moron.
Posted by: getupgrrl at Jan 13, 2004 9:29:21 PM
One of the rebuttals I've often heard when the expense or waiting involved with adoption is referenced is:
"But what about waiting kids in foster care? I've heard the state will even pay you to adopt them! And they speed up the process so you can get approved fast!"
Right. This is what every dream-filled, starry-eyed parent wants: A child, not a baby (babies are so messy, after all), who has been bounced around and had their heart broken in countless ways, countless times. Even the most experienced parent, with a degree in child development AND child psychology would be up to their eyeballs in issues and challenges most parents will never face.
I'm sorry, I just had to throw that in there, since I'm still a bit hot under the collar about all of this.
And Getupgrrl, if curious had adopted, she never woulda said anything about "needy children." I guarantee it.
Posted by: Mollie at Jan 14, 2004 12:30:51 AM
Getupgirl says, "he has seen many of these 'high fragmentation' guys get pregnant."
NOW i know what we have been doing wrong! we have been trying to get the wrong person pregnant. next time it's hubby up in the stirrups, to be sure.
Posted by: knobody at Feb 19, 2004 12:45:19 PM
Julie,
I'm so sorry that you had to deal with such insensitive comments, but for myself, I'm grateful that what was written was written. Everything that Curious said, I've said to myself, and worse. Years ago, when I was young and stupid and never ever thought that I'd have to deal with this issue personally, I believed (though I'd never have said so to anyone -- I wasn't that far gone) that pursuing ART instead of adopting a needy orphan seemed kinda selfish in a first world consumerish way. Well, I certainly had the last laugh on myself. And now I know that when you're actually in the situation, when the choices are there before you and one is as difficult and consuming as the other, everything looks different. And ultimately, my husband and I just want what we want, and no amount of logic and appeals to our own consciences seems to change that. That's when the recriminations set in -- if I don't just want a child, any child, then I don't deserve ANY child and what kind of mother would I be anyway, being so obviously selfish? The things I've thought to myself are much, much worse than what Curious said, though it was harsh and stinging to actually see it in print. But if I hadn't seen that, I wouldn't have seen all the responses, which so eloquently articulate the terribly difficult choices women like us make, and our right to do what we feel is the best thing for ourselves and our hoped-for families. I guess that there will always be those busybodies out there, ready to pass judgment on things they know nothing about. But it's better, I'm thinking, that they be actual rather than imaginary demons. At least then you can face them head on with your gang of pissed-off henchwomen behind you. Julie and all of your fans, thank you for making me feel better today.
Posted by: Kimm at Aug 19, 2004 12:23:00 PM
Hi, I just stumbled onto this blog, and read the old comments from "Curious", the pinhead. My rebuttal to people like that is if you ever get cancer, then I expect you to help with the overpopulation problem by not treating your disease with expensive and hellish procedures.
I haven't had a chance yet to read all the new posts, but hope everyone here has achieved their dream of having a child. I had recurrent miscarriages(4 before I had my daughter) and 2 since. I know I wouldn't be the parent I am today without the experience of infertility. I feel blessed that I will never take my child for granted and have the maturity to know that every second of her childhood is precious. I feel sorry for the parents who will never understand how quickly their babies will grow up and will regret not treasuring every moment. Or worse, the poor children who have parents who will never understand what a gift they are.
I also know that the empathy I've gained from my experiences is priceless. I appreciate being a wiser and kinder person. To be able to grow and change from adversity isn't something everyone achieves, and I am glad I stumbled upon the posts of such insightful, inspiring, women.
Posted by: Pam at Jun 10, 2005 2:57:06 AM
Hmmmm- for one thing I am fairly sure Curious is a teenager who was researching some homework with a scintilla of information.
I think we also reached zero population growth a long time ago in the Western World.
But I wont bother to check.
Kinda getting back to Julie's original post - and touching on Curious' point- which like Kimm, also was definitely on my mind until I got educated at the AFA (It used to be AIA), its a good point that does bear attention, although once it's attended to it is of course patently foolish. Anyway...
As a single woman who wants to have a baby, I am very grateful to the gay and lesbian people who came before me, because I have been turned away by reputable surrogacy agencies (the one who helped Joan Lunden) because they wont work with single women. They just dont believe we should bring a child into a single parent home.
Back to the whole judgement thing again, and I wont bother to elaborate on that- even though I fear that even here among my infertility sistren there are some who agree- I don't deserve to have a child because I dont have a SO.
OK so my beloved step sister, who is lesbian has a lovely SO. Like everyone I confide in, she just has ONE burning question... and hers was... the same as Curious'.
Thanks to a seminar at the AFA on egg donation, I was very ready for her. I had to cross the bridge to accepting that I could use donor sperm, and a surrogate AND donor egg. I guess I should elaborate alittle on that- because as much as I am SURE that Curious would burn a fuse on that one, I am also pretty worried that I would lose a lot of the sisteren.
When I accepted egg donation as a possible option, I relaxed considerably and stopped being jealous of every mother and baby on the planet. When I learned about what happens in egg donation, how the parents so truly forget the source of the egg - husbands (and in laws) still saying the kid gets THAT from YOUR side of the family, when I see the pictures of DE children that look amazingly just like their Mom, when I read the interviews of those children as they grow up and find how well adjusted they are- and when I considered my own thinking on abortion, the kind of "choice" abortion, how I believe the child's soul really comes from the love of it's mother, the one who wants it, that the same way that the Almighty (whichever one you want) allows us the technology to assist both the creation of life and also to terminate a possible life- but really, it may take a village to raise a child but somewhere in there is some kind of deity that wakes the biology (yes, I do love a run on sentence) and I knew I could create MY child, I had hope again.
At the same seminar, one of the husbands asked something similar as Curious, I am sure he wanted to spare his wife a lot of pain, and get them a child, so he asked about stopping by an orphanage...
Now this seemed a totally ignorant and obnoxious question. Ignorant yes, but that's why he was there, to learn. The answer was interesting. It's not so damn easy to adopt either, especially in the US. And if you do manage to adopt in the US, the birth mother has rights- and could take that child away for a time period that I am not familiar with. And if you happen to be white, the chances of having a baby who looks enough like you as to avoid "disclosure" the word for when you tell your child where they come from is not your parent's lion chops, well that's as soon as they have eyes pretty much.
My sister's lover pointed out that if I adopted, I would know the baby had 10 fingers and 10 toes etc. True enough. And as we all know, there are choices to be made and its best to be informed. So as much as I want to break Curious' neck and drink her/his blood, I have to admit that before I got educated I thought the same thing.
There was something else in my case, which I know is a common theme. I am Jewish and feel some responsibility to further the gene pool of ancestors who were wiped out in the Holocaust. (Interesting note: Many Orthodox Jews require that donated sperm NOT be Jewish, to reduce the chance of inbreeding in the small gene pool. Besides, as my religious cousin reminds me, Jewish identity does not come from a gene, it comes from belief. The idea that your genes make you Jewish was the Nazi's idea.)
So, I hope that Curious would investigate further, get educated, because they did raise the question, although they did it in the wrong forum at the wrong time and with the superior know it all condescending attitude. They did damage. Idiot. OK OK I am not going there now...
Back to the gay issue... since this came from my LESBIAN friend.
And the surrogacy agency I found that would work with me, only recently started accepting heteros- and no surprise already there is another single woman client after me.
They are used to working with gay MEN, not gay women. They were complete dolts about working with an older woman, same as infertile woman. Being men, they dont have to worry about a biological clock, and since they are working with donor eggs, they have all the time in the world. They were utterly insensitive to my needs as a woman using her own eggs- even though my uterus is not up to the task.
So I am in the same moment utterly grateful to the gay and lesbian community, and I also want to snap their necks.
It ends up being about ignorance and education, and passing judgement on other people.
I hope I am going to be able to teach my kid how to deal with it, 'cause that's part of the life I am bringing them into.
Posted by: Subversive Mother at Feb 5, 2006 7:25:18 PM
Well, I have been reading Julie's blog for a few days now (starting from the beginning) with a very specific purpose. My SIL has struggled with infertility for the last 8 years. She rarely wants to talk, and complains, as others do here, that people say the wrong thing, or don't understand what she's going through. So I guess I was looking to develop some empathy. Well, Julie, you certainly helped with that- so you have accomplished your third goal, and thank you very much. I have laughed and cried while reading through your blog and I've learned so much about what it really takes- courage, money, strength, determination, maybe a little bit of lunacy- to do what you want to do. I really feel like I have a better perspective on SIL's feelings, although I promise I will NEVER say "I know how you feel." I don't. I hope I never do. But I haven't thought about starting a family, so that is yet to be seen.
I just have to comment on the "why not adopt" although I can see that it's been addressed beautifully so far. From my sister-in-law's perspective, here is why not to adopt, or rather, why the odds are against you when you try to adopt:
Three years of no children. SIL has not had a period in six months. OB says it's not a problem, and they should just "keep trying." No referral to ER.
Contact China adoption people after confirmation that SIL is not ovulating. Spend two years filling out forms, paying ludicrous sums of money and looking at pics of infants who have gone to other homes that were deemed "more suitable." They failed on the question that asked "Do you think your religious beliefs would influence the way you bring up your child?" Ummmm... apparently you're supposed to say no to that... Six more months of paper work, and viola! Suddenly someone discovers after they've paid $10,000+ that SIL is not actually old enough to adopt from China. You need to be 30. Who's mistake was that, I wonder???
Apply for domestic adoption. Realize that while the US posts commercials daily for adoption, they don't make it easy. Have a homestudy, have another, and another, and another. And finally realize that NO ONE was filing these forms or any others you have sent in. Start over. In the background, have heated arguments with your OBGYN that it is NOT normal to have no period, not a single one, for over a year. Someone finally acknowledges there might be a little problem in that region. Still waiting on the domestic adoption.
Attend a church service where a social worker discusses the need for good foster homes and that sometimes people are able to adopt their foster children. Hopes raised. Sign up. Take 14 months to have paperwork approved, and have to move to a new home because your old house wasn't up to foster parent "code." Paper work finally gets approved and two days later, a 2 month old infant lands on your doorstep. Wild elation, parties, and celebration- this child is "adoptable" and could legally be theirs in just a few short months. We all meet and fall in love with the baby, drool and gaga and bestow presents. Unexpectedly, two months after his arrival, he is returned to his birth mother, who had supposedly lost parental rights. My first nephew, and the only grandchild on either side of the family is now gone, and it seems like a death, it's so hard.
Randomly, several weeks later, the birth mother was arrested, and back came nephew. But now there were problems. He has been starved, beaten, neglected, abused. Won't cuddle, no normal baby like responses. Already we can all see the effects of shifting homes on this poor little baby. Nephew is still supposedly adoptable, but we are much more cautious this time. Did I mention still waiting on domestic adoption applications filed through many many agencies...?
No answers about no periods, and no pregnancies. But they put her on birth control pills to jumpstart her system. It works, but they take her off to see if she can maintain, and it's a no go. Her uterus and ovaries are very noncooperative. Still waiting on adoption application.
Nephew makes slow improvement over the next year. Mother's rights are legally terminated...hmmm...thought that already happened. He begins to call SIL mommy, which makes her cry, because she doesn't know from one day to the next if she'll be able to keep him. The torture eeks on for a few more months, and they can finally file for formal adoption- which by the way- CAN'T HAPPEN until he's been in foster care for 18 months. 18 months!!!
Adoption process goes slowly. Surpise. They then have to hire a contractor to add to their house so they can have the appropriate number of rooms on the top and bottom floor so that they can try another international adoption. Because nephew is still technically a foster child, they have to follow the state's rules.
File adotion papers for Russian adoption. Several thousand dollars into it they pull out as they have been misled, blatantly lied to, and had two children adopted out from under them.
Waiting on domestic applications. Have a court date for nephew's adoption. Court date cancelled. Repeat process three more times.
Hmmm... this sucks so far. Anyway, to make a very long story somewhat shorter, my nephew is now 2 1/2 years old and is still not adopted. I can't even tell you the pain and trauma this has caused to all. There is a court date in two weeks. We are assured all will go well. Unfortunately we just got the news that birth mother, who has had no contact with her son for nearly a year and a half, is now contesting the adoption.
Meanwhile, no one seems to notice this nice couple who wants to adopt domestically. They filed two months ago for an Ethiopian adoption. We'll see how that one goes.
So let's see. Nearly five years and not one legal child to show for it. Adoption is so easy, and so much less painful- I don't think so!!
They are not looking to just give children away- there's so much red tape that two years isn't enough time to get through it all to adopt a child out of the foster system.
Oh, and now that after 8 years of no children, they are finally allowed to see an ER who will be covered through insurance. Guess they had to wait and make sure they weren't going to pop one out accidentally. So who can possibly blame them if they want to try and have one of their own that the state can't tell them what to do with, and which room they have to sleep in, and how old their siblings are allowed to be, and how close in age.... GARRRRRR
Sure, it's so easy. Do a good deed. Just adopt. :-)
Posted by: justagirl at Mar 23, 2006 12:30:04 PM
This RE of yours is such a winner... I can't wait to get to the part (working my way forward from the back now) when you dump him, because that has just GOT to happen.
Posted by: Jess at Oct 7, 2006 10:32:37 PM
Hey Curious. How I set up my family is my own business, not yours. I am not adopting and I refuse to apologize for that.
I don't owe you, or anyone else, an apology.
Posted by: Not Curious at Mar 16, 2007 6:17:02 PM
Tia, what I do with my body is my business. You don't get to decide if I have an IVF, an IUI, or when or how often I have sex. You don't get to decide if I use birth control or not. You don't get to decide if I have kids or don't have them. My body is my business.
You sound like a very bitter, unhappy person to me. I feel sorry for you.
Posted by: Jess at Mar 16, 2007 6:23:15 PM
Just adopt? There is a long and rigorous process involved to determine if you are even "good enough" to adopt. If you are rich then it is "easier". If you are willing to take a teen and/or a child with a myriad of challenges than it is "easier". In the meantime you have to wait for years and then be put through several interviews and evaluations. Sitting waiting for your application to be processed (up to 5 years) you feel doubly helpless/useless. So why not try fertility treatments in the meantime.
Posted by: at Jan 13, 2009 12:26:28 PM
