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12/31/2004
Circ du no-way
I've been reading the comments about circumcision over at Tertia's with great interest. It all reminds me of a conversation that took place during our childbirth classes. The teacher asked our class eight couples, all having a boy whether we planned to circumcise. Seven out of eight planned to cut. Paul and I were the sole dissenters.
The most popular reason was the belief that father and son should have matching parts. The teacher listened to this and then asked, in a sensible tone, "...And how much time did you spend naked with your father?"
"Enough," I asked Paul sotto voce, "or not enough?"
"None," Paul muttered repressively, "and therefore exactly enough."
So you see that father-son Garanimal tackle isn't really a priority for us.
The second most popular reason was the belief that an uncircumcised boy might be ridiculed during the inevitable locker room comparisons. This is apparently a sacred ritual, this adolescent scrutiny. What, you didn't know that teenage boys love to be caught staring at each other's kickstands in the shower? Just good clean schoolboy fun. In fact, I like to think of it as wholesome and stylized, perhaps something like a schoolwide spelldown a penis bee, if you will.
I'm thinking that if Charlie's peers have to look that hard for a reason to make fun of him, he's probably doing okay.
Cited third were concerns about cleanliness. Of course this forced me to imagine my male classmates in varying stages of cloacal rot, and to conclude that they've never heard of that magical substance, rarer than ambergris, more precious than civet, more exotic than the frankinest of frankincense: soap.
In our house, we are clean people who happen to enjoy handling our genitals. I have no worries as far as hygiene goes.
So, really, none of the top three reasons seemed compelling to us. And while God seems quite avidly interested in what Jews and Muslims do in the dingus department, I've received no word on how pale and WASPy agnostics should handle the situation, though I have an intuitive certainty that whatever we're supposed to do surely involves liquor and a handwritten thank-you note on engraved stationery. Beyond that, God is either silent or passed out drunk after cocktails at the club, one.
Without any strong justification for doing it, then, we decided not to circumcise a boy long before Charlie was born. But until I actually became custodian of a newborn penis like a regency, I guess, only more, you know, scrotal I didn't feel particularly invested in the decision, an impartial arbiter on an issue that remained mostly theoretical.
Now things are different. I see the equipment in question. Friends, I am here to tell you: that-there is one tiny penis. You know how in Chinatown you can get your name carved into a grain of rice? It would be like that. You'd need a goddamn jeweler's loupe to perform the procedure. And the steady hands and steely nerve of a neurosurgeon. And nanobots. With lasers.
And, look, I know the baby who'd be affected. In his very short life, Charlie has experienced so much pain and fear that I can't imagine intentionally causing more without a damned good reason. Even if it's not especially painful for a newborn, as some assert, it would hurt me to subject him to a medical procedure that's ultimately cosmetic and elective. Really, we've had about enough.
And if my insurance company wouldn't spring for a lousy freakin' ambulance, I'm pretty sure they won't cover the nanobots, either. So Charlie remains uncut. If the boys in the locker room have a problem with that, they can take it up with me.
Posted by Julie at 12:45 AM in Mama drama | Permalink
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» Hands off! from Blog of Leonid Mamchenkov
I was reading this post about circumcision from a little pregnant blog. It was spawned by another blog entry. Both posts were written by women. Each one decided differently on the issue. So I ... [Read More]
Tracked on Dec 31, 2004 8:39:52 AM
» The Long And The Short Of It from Between Stupid And Clever
I think I'll end 2004 with someone else's brilliant words instead of my ramblings: Julie at A Little Pregnant just wrote this post on circumcision that very much speaks to my worryings on this topic. Like Julie (and for many [Read More]
Tracked on Dec 31, 2004 12:07:10 PM
» More about circumcision from Caliban - Ian and Sarah on Life
I've been reading more about circumcision, not because I'm not sure of what to do when Franbert's born, but because it's fascinating to read the stories of parents who are misguided and believe it's the right thing to do. There... [Read More]
Tracked on Feb 26, 2005 5:09:09 AM
» The first cut is the deepest from Caliban - Ian and Sarah on Life
I've been reading more about circumcision, not because I'm not sure of what to do when Franbert's born, but because it's fascinating to read the stories of parents who are misguided and believe it's the right thing to do. There... [Read More]
Tracked on Feb 26, 2005 5:11:17 AM
Comments (157)
Amen.
agnostically speaking....
Posted by: Boulder at Dec 31, 2004 12:53:24 AM
In my short career as a mother of a boy, I have observed that uncut little boys' wangs look twice as long as the cut ones. If there was a toddler locker room, the teasing would definitely go the other way.
Posted by: Moxie at Dec 31, 2004 12:54:59 AM
Moxie- me too! We were wondering whether Mason had a future as the next John Holmes, then a friend told me it was because he wasn't circumcised. I think its like 50% now, so how much locker room teasing can there be? Bert's dad wasn't circed, Bert was, Mason wasn't. No one looks like Dad in our family. So far they have stayed out of church towers with assault weapons. I don't think there has been much psychological damage.
Posted by: Lisa at Dec 31, 2004 1:06:36 AM
Yes, what Boulder said.
Congratulations to Charlie, his wee wang, and its turtleneck. May they have a long and happy life together!
Posted by: akeeyu at Dec 31, 2004 1:19:53 AM
I'm glad to hear that Charlie gets to keep all his bits.
I wanted to pipe in as the mother of a
12 years old son who is circ'ed. All the talk surrounding circ and breastfeeding/bonding is interesting, but the real test is when your son asks why you did it. I'll quote from my post at "so close" now...
Our pediatrician recommended it, my husband was leaning towards doing it anyway and so we did it. It's no longer recommended as a routine medical procedure. Our son has blond hair and blue eyes, my husband has brown hair and brown eyes. The idea that we cut off a piece of our son's perfect body so that he would "look like Dad" embarrasses us now.
There really is nothing like having your son ask you why he was circumsized and having to explain the only reason you cut off a functional piece of his body was so that his penis might look more like his Dads. It's not fun. I don't recommend it.
Posted by: Kathleen at Dec 31, 2004 1:25:29 AM
Grats Charlie on being able to remain intact! We made that decision with our son as well and have not regretted it! (Son #2, on the way in 2 months, will also be intact).
Posted by: Bren at Dec 31, 2004 1:28:39 AM
I just had my son a little less then two months ago. He was cut for a couple of reasons. My husband is from the South Pacific Island of Tonga and there the boys all get cut when they are like 12 years old. It is like a coming of age. My husband said when he went to do it, him, his brother and friend all went together. Then when they were walking home they were all comparing their parts with each other. Then the went swimming in the ocean to make it heal faster!
Although my husband is in no way traumatized by this memory, he actually laughs about it, I thought oh dear Lord I don't want my child going through that, so we did it 3 days after he was born.
Then not to sound like an idiot, but I seriously thought everyone did it, until I was talking to some of my friends from England and they thought just the opposite. So for us, it was more of a culture and religious issue .
dani
btw, i'm so happy for you and how well you and your son are doing! You have been in my prayers.
Posted by: Dani at Dec 31, 2004 1:37:20 AM
OMG. This is my offical all-time favorite blog entry of yours. I cannot fathom why you were not a BOB award finalist--the judges must not be fans of the WASPy-agnostic laugh-until-you-pee-your-pants kick ass writing style that you STILL manage to show in the midst of so much stress. Either that or they are all too busy checking out each others bits in the locker room to notice that you ROCK! Woman you are my new personal hero :)
Posted by: wavybrains at Dec 31, 2004 1:58:17 AM
Maybe the people at the BoB awards were repelled by the unholy funk of my foreskin.
Posted by: Julie at Dec 31, 2004 2:08:04 AM
If you're not Jewish or Muslim, I don't see why circumcision IS warranted. My boys will get a bris, G-d Willing, as I'm a religious Jew. But if I weren't I definitley wouldnt do it. You made the right decision.
Posted by: Mindy at Dec 31, 2004 2:11:38 AM
so i myself am cut, as are my two sons. so, with respect to your decision, mr paul and mrs julie, all i can say is RIGHT ON BABY! =)
Posted by: RainbowW at Dec 31, 2004 2:27:22 AM
Well said! Bravo! I totally get it.
Posted by: Rebekah at Dec 31, 2004 2:28:22 AM
As another religious Jew, I have no choice and really have never given it a second thought. The only thing I would say in a non-religious defense of circumcision is AESTHETICS. Now, maybe this is just a personal taste sort of thing, but in my opinion, that delightfully functional tool needs all the help it can get to look presentable to the world. It should be able to hold itself up proudly and say, "Ok, ok, so I am not a great beauty, but, at least I'm not shaggy, I AM WELL GROOMED."
Posted by: lastqueen at Dec 31, 2004 2:41:31 AM
As it is around 50/50 now in this country for baby boys to be cut/uncut, I forsee that the winds of change are a'blowin' those little flapping foreskins. I don't think teasing or female aversion will be the problem for this generation that it was for previous generations.
Also love this post (all the moreso since I happen to agree wholeheartedly).
Posted by: Mare_Imbrium at Dec 31, 2004 3:03:13 AM
though I should mention by your title I thought at first it was a negative post about Cirque du Soleil.
Posted by: Mare_Imbrium at Dec 31, 2004 3:04:38 AM
Yay for Charlie! And I have to say to people who (like lastqueen just above) who think an un-circed penis is ugly, and more normal looking, what if your son ever moves to a country where it is not the norm? As an Australian, and having seen both types, I hate the look of a "well-groomed" penis... it looks so, well, naked! Also, I am always hearing these stories of a friends fathers cousin who had to have it done as an adult. A huge majority of people in Australia haven't been circumsised, and I have yet to meet someone who was forced to have it done when they were older.
Posted by: falimako at Dec 31, 2004 3:35:32 AM
My son's father is circ'd and we never took the "looking like dad" into account. I just couldn't see the point to removing part of his body! The biggest deciding factor for me was the way that I approach things like this. I believe that this is something he should have a say in. A lot of people gave me questions where that was the only answer I could come up with.
Posted by: Kerri at Dec 31, 2004 4:01:43 AM
Good for you. My son is not circusmised - I truly believe it's not my dick so it's not my choice!
Posted by: andrea at Dec 31, 2004 5:23:44 AM
I've actually only ever met two cut males in my life...one was my grandfather and the other was a guy i went to high school with, so it's unusual here for it to be done.
I'm not anti-circumsion but my son won't be done. Having a newborn is stressful enough for me without the added worries of a wound on his delicates.
Posted by: girlwonder at Dec 31, 2004 5:24:06 AM
As I said on Tertia's blog, I've never seen a real live circumcised penis - but after extensive googling, and a fair amount of research on www.ratemyschlong.com, I can safely say that no matter what you do to it, it won't look any more attractive. Except perhaps if you knitted it a little hat. Although I'm not sure what the boys in the locker room would make of that.
Here in the UK, circumcision is not performed, except for medical or religious reasons. If I ever have a son, I know I couldn't let him have it done unless there was a bloody good medical reason. I know it very rarely happens - but what if they accidentally chopped it off?
I really don't get the 'looking like Dad' thing either - I wouldn't expect my (hypothetical) daughter and I to have matching genitalia - although I do have a nice neat, symmetrical, set of labia.
Posted by: tess at Dec 31, 2004 5:54:21 AM
And so it would appear that you and Paul (and Charlie) have a very different situation, which requires a different decision. One that is right for the three of you.
Posted by: blackbird at Dec 31, 2004 6:27:03 AM
I have four sons. The first son was circumcised because that was "the thing to do." However, the doctor took off such a little bit that he has actually fooled other pediatricians into thinking that he is NOT circumcised. The other three we didn't mess with.
Now, my friend did not circ her two sons but she was fastidious about cleaning under the foreskin. Her sons got infections and ended up having circumcisions when they were pre-schoolers... OUCH!
I just left mine alone. They messed with their penises enough on their own that they learned how to pull the foreskin back, (in fact I had a 5 year old that was go good at it he called it his special talent!) but I never did any special cleaning there and apparently just a little soaking with some soap and water in the bathtub was all they needed!
Posted by: Elena at Dec 31, 2004 8:21:37 AM
BTW, I forgot to mention that at 6'1, 210 pounds, no one teases my oldest about his foreskin. Ever. : )
Posted by: Elena at Dec 31, 2004 8:22:34 AM
Not that it's any of my business, but . . . yay!
Also, to the tune of "My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean," and courtesy of Sean's British camp counselors, years ago:
My oneskin lies under my twoskin
My twoskin lies under my three
My threeskin lies under my foreskin
So pull back my foreskin for meeee!
See? Everything's going to be just great.
Pull back, pull back, pull back my foreskin for me-ee-ee!
Pull back, pull back, pull back my foreskin for me!
See, everything's going to be just great.
Posted by: Jo at Dec 31, 2004 8:24:41 AM
I second that amen. You should see the board they strap them too. My son is uncut regardless of my religion.
Posted by: Lauren at Dec 31, 2004 8:41:38 AM
The idea of doing it to make the child look like dad seems nuts to me. If dad were missing an arm due to amputation, would you cut your son's arm off too? Nature put it there for a reason, so leave it alone.
Posted by: gin at Dec 31, 2004 8:54:34 AM
Of course it is a personal decision and I commend you for being steadfast in that decision. My son is circ'd, but I would never think poorly of anyone who chooses not to. The mere idea of doing it so daddy and son look alike?? Idiocy.
I will say that while my son was in the NICU, my husband and I actually witnessed a circ being done (on another baby) and I was amazed at how fast and scream free it was. That baby sort of squinched its face up, said a little "wah" and promptly made baby noises and dozed as the doc finished up. I know it's probably not the norm, but that little guy was a trooper. That same doc did our son's circ so I was pleased with that.
Posted by: angie at Dec 31, 2004 9:37:11 AM
"Thanks!" said Charlie's teeny tiny dick.
Posted by: Kelly at Dec 31, 2004 9:44:06 AM
lastqueen said:
The only thing I would say in a non-religious defense of circumcision is AESTHETICS.
Yeah, I get it...it's just that when it comes to someone else's tiny weenus, I can't quite work up the nerve to appoint myself Penile Elegance Czar.
For one thing, I'd never make it through the Senate confirmation hearings.
Posted by: Julie at Dec 31, 2004 10:05:53 AM
We were expecting a girl, so we hadn't even had the circumcision discussion until the first day in the hospital while they cleaned our surprise son up. The doctor suggested we do it. All my female and mother friends said it was more hygenic, better-looking, blah blah blah. So we did.
There is no forewarning for how awful it looks the minute you open up your newborn's diaper to find blood and Vaseline everywhere. If I had to do it over; I probably wouldn't...I much prefer the look of circumsized to non, and I do believe it's easier for little guys to clean (my son is only 1 and a half and can do it himself in the bath), but that guilt and realization of: "Wow, I just mutilated my child's genitals," is too much. If it were a girl getting part of her labia snipped, I don't think it would even be an option.
(As an aside, I'm surprised so many women haven't seen circumcized penii-- one of my friends (no names) has slept with over 70 men, and she said only two were un-. Maybe it's just a regional thing. Around here, it's definitely the norm... Probably why the doctor just assumed we would do it.)
Posted by: Anonymous Mom. at Dec 31, 2004 10:10:04 AM
Lauren said:
You should see the board they strap them too.
I've seen that board. It doesn't actually faze me. If I were having my son circumcised, I'd want him to be forced to lie very...very...still, after all. In fact, I can think of several practical applications for such an apparatus — say, like, when Charlie is three and won't eat his motherfucking peas.
Posted by: Julie at Dec 31, 2004 10:10:55 AM
Good for you! I wholeheartedly agree.
And Anon Mom, the women who haven't seen a cir'd penis most likely just live in one of 90 or so % of the countries on earth that rarely do it.
As for AESTHETICS, it all about what you're used too. One was doen't loook any better than the other, just more familar.
Congrats to Charlie on keeping all his parts. He will thank you later.
Posted by: Emily at Dec 31, 2004 10:43:01 AM
Egad, I hope he never thanks me later! When he's old enough to a) talk, b) acknowledge gratitude, and c) understand and discuss circumcision with any fluency, he is too old for me to want to talk penis with him.
Posted by: Julie at Dec 31, 2004 10:49:46 AM
Having just started a personal journal, I realize suddenly how artistic your blog-entries are: never dull, always well-structured, virtually always funny or moving. How do you do it?! I think you are a professional writer, perhaps? I hope so anyhow.
Posted by: Anonymous at Dec 31, 2004 10:57:39 AM
Thank God, Thank God. Every time a friend or family member circumcises their son, I wince. It horrifies me, actually. Of course I don't lecture them or even say anything, but I refuse to attend a bris. My Jewish aunt cried for hours after watching her son's.
Look, I've seriously dated two guys who were intact. One was a very popular football player who ALL the girls loved, no one would have dared to comment on his dick because he could probably say that their girlfriend didn't seem to mind it. The sex was awesome- we're not talking regular high school sex- this felt really, really good, and I honestly think it's because of that extra skin.
The second was a long term boyfriend I was very close with for about 5 years. NOT ONCE in five years did the circumcision topic "arise" (hehe). I hung out with his friends constantly and either they were unaware of the state of his penis or they just didn't care.
Never once, in school or anywhere, have I heard someone being made fun of because of their penis having been snipped or unsnipped. Guys make fun of other's penis SIZE. And if Charlie catches someone glancing over while they're taking a piss, there are only about 100,000,000 comebacks that will sting a lot more than anything anyone can say about an uncircumsized dick.
My kid's penis won't come near any sharp objects as long as I have anything to do with it. What he does as an adult is his business!
Posted by: Lily at Dec 31, 2004 11:02:56 AM
My sister and I both have only girls -- I think it was God's way of keeping our extended families from killing each other. Our parents are European and very anti-circ, our in-laws very pro. I myself think everyone should be free to choose without having to justify themselves, but am philosophically mildly anti.
However, if we'd had a son, I think I might actually have gone pro-circ for two reasons. One, two men I know well had to be circumcised as adults due to balinitis (?) -- where having an erection becomes very painful because of the way the foreskin has grown. It takes a lot longer to recover from circ as an adult. And it really HURTS. And certain activities that infants (ahem) don't engage in are a no-no for quite awhile.
The other reason is a comment a friend of mine made about her 8-year-old son. "Good grief, when I think what I have to go through just to make him wash his HANDS ... !"
Food for thought.
Posted by: NorthernVaMom at Dec 31, 2004 11:22:59 AM
Fabulous post.
When my girls were in the NICU, my husband mentioned circ because we couldn't stand the amount of pain the girls had to undergo for medical reasons. We couldn't imagine intentionally causing pain for an elective procedure on a newborn.
We're traditional Jews. We're also adamantly against circ. I'm tired of hearing that Jews have no choice. We all absolutely have free choice.
I posted my link on Tertia's site and I'll do it here too because it's the only way to explain my reasons in a small space:
http://www.hyphen.bravehost.com/3reasons.html
There's a link there to my Questioning Jewish Circumcision site too.
Posted by: Drama Queen at Dec 31, 2004 11:28:11 AM
Side note on tight foreskins and erections: This can be treated with creams or even a small slit cut in the foreskin. It typically doesn't require circumcision.
Posted by: Drama Queen at Dec 31, 2004 11:31:49 AM
Now that you're a knitter.... you don't have to worry about the kids embarrassing him in gym class. Just knit him one of these!
http://www.yarnivore.com/mt/archives/Willie Warmer.jpg
Love,
Brenda
Posted by: BrendaS at Dec 31, 2004 11:35:02 AM
Good for you. There's an absurd percentage I can't pull out of my ass right now of nerve endings that go bye-bye when a boy is circumcised. Unless one is a religous Jew, I can see no reason to deny a young man more pleasure than his "cut" peers have during, well, you know. That right there would be reason enough for me, rice-grain-sized penis or not.
Posted by: GayGirlyGirl at Dec 31, 2004 11:43:09 AM
"amputation" = something to avoid
Posted by: mollie at Dec 31, 2004 12:02:36 PM
Ok, brother is cut, DH is not. DH said if we had a son he would want him cut. I had the opposite viewpoint. It's part of the body that is natural to be there, leave it.
Plus, at risk of TMI, while erect, they don't look all that different and I never understood the fear of women caring how it looks.
They aren't the prettiest body parts in the best of circumstances, so a little skin or not is not going to make me gasp in astonishment at how beautiful that thing is.
Never gonna happen.
Posted by: Amy at Dec 31, 2004 12:12:57 PM
My 3 year old son is uncirced (and for similar reasons in the beginning--I was anti-circ and my husband was pro-circ, but when he arrived prematurely it became a non-issue) and I've never regretted it. I think it looks fine and I don't like the way circed baby penises look, actually. Also on the "clean" issue--we teach our children to clean every other part of the body, why not the penis?
Posted by: barbara at Dec 31, 2004 12:18:33 PM
Amen too. After some research I decided I would do it but the arguments for both sides were pretty much equal to me. I tipped over to the "do it" side because, personally, I prefer the look of a circ'd penis.
HOWEVER - he is a few days shy of six weeks and is still intact. And intact he will remain. Like Julie said, that there is one tiny unit. Up here in Canada they don't do them in the hospital (at least not in mine) and you pay out of pocket (used to be covered). I could have spent the $200 but I couldn't bear to take him back in later to have it cut. And you can't convince me that they don't feel it!! I didn't feel strongly enough for the "do it" argument and I know I've made the right decision.
Verrrry long-winded way of saying, Great Choice, Julie (and husband and yay! Charlie).
Posted by: peggy at Dec 31, 2004 12:27:51 PM
Just had a baby boy myself on 9/16 and reasoned the exact same way, and I'm so happy we didn't have it done. Thanks for expressing it so eloquently. Also, he has an older sister and I just thought how crazy and wrong it would have been to do something like that to her. We're cheering for baby Charlie and his family.
Posted by: andrea at Dec 31, 2004 12:39:27 PM
Wanted to add that Drama Queen, you are right on when it comes to "choosing."
I know a lot of very observant Jews who choose to keep kosher in their homes, but not on the road. There's no equivalent with circumcision, is there?
Posted by: mollie at Dec 31, 2004 1:06:23 PM
From the mother of two un'c.d boys...we figured that men lie for the rest of their lives to get that 1/4 inch back...so why cut it off in the first place?
Posted by: allisonda at Dec 31, 2004 1:47:47 PM
Hahahahahahahahahaha ohhhh.
Posted by: Julie at Dec 31, 2004 2:08:14 PM
Wow. What an eye-opener.
The most compelling reason to circumsize in my opinion is the strong associating between uncirc'd men and HPV - and its relationship in turn to cervical cancer.
There are more than 100 types of HPV (human papilloma virus). Some produce warts - plantar warts on the feet, common hand warts, juvenile warts, butcher's warts, and genital warts. About 30 types of HPV can infect the genital area - the vulva, vagina, cervix, rectum, anus, penis, or scrotum.
For those of us who had unprotected intercourse with uncircumsized men and did not know the risks involved, I can tell you from personal experience that (1) the diagnosis of cervical cancer is emotionally difficult to deal with, especially when you find out that it could have been prevented with circumcision and (2) the cryo surgery necessary to treat the cancer is very painful. [before any of the moral police chime in to tell me that a condom could have also prevented it, thank you - I'm not that stupid. This was my fiancee and I was on the pill. I doubt that many people in long-term relationships plan to use condoms once they establish that the relationship is monogamous]
I know this is a controversial subject so I tried to find a really good site to link to here but all of the good sites with real data require subscriptions. I've asked my guy to log in and post something substantial but he won't be able to until Monday. The reason I've asked him to is because HPV is at the crux of his life's work. He is a cancer researcher at Yale and has patented a technology using one of the parts of the HPV virus to stop the senescence of cancer cells.
He was astonished when I told him the reasons people listed over on T's site. He was even more astonished to discover that people didn't realize how serious the consequences could prove to be for female partners of uncircumsized males.
So, that's my 2c. If this topic is still open for discussion on Monday, perhaps I'll have him post over on my site to save Julie's blog space.
Posted by: susan at Dec 31, 2004 2:15:40 PM
You know that scene in the parked car in Animal House with the rubber glove and the lube and the well if you're not even going to try I'm going to stop? That has nothing to do with anything, except I think of it everytime I think about the cut/uncut thing. I'll be the crude one and point out that certain things are *so* much easier on an uncut one.
We're having a girl, but I made a point of telling my OB that if it turns out she's a he, no snip snip. The uncut ones save a bundle in lube, for starters.
Posted by: atomic at Dec 31, 2004 2:27:36 PM

