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02/13/2005
It happened one night
Usually Paul tends Charlie around midnight. I take the 4 AM feeding because I need to be up to pump anyway. This generally allows each of us to get a short stretch of unbroken sleep, although it's imperfect; pumping every two to three hours plays hell with a girl's slumber. I'm philosophical about that, since I know that if Charlie were nursing I'd be up then, anyway.
I say "usually" and "generally" because we've been known to switch off when one of us needs to crash. Last night Paul was in dire straits, so I volunteered to be on duty all night.
I started feeding Charlie at 10:30, confident that he'd be finished and sleeping peacefully by the time I needed to pump at 11:30. Somewhere along the line, though, he started getting pissy. He'd suck on his bottle, but a few pulls in he'd start arching back, making a terribly angry face, and screaming. After a few rounds of this, I concluded that he wanted to suck but had a full stomach, so I put his pacifier in his mouth. He'd suck on that for a while, then repeat the same routine of angry contortions. I tried to pretend we were playing a game of charades at a sophisticated '30s house party, but he remained unamused by my guesses: swaddling? No. Rocking? No. Jiggling? No. Swing? No. Shushing loudly into his ear to drown out his angry yowls? No, and quit that, goddamn it.
Inconsolaboy.
Nothing was working, so as a last-ditch effort I shucked off what little clothing I was wearing and put him to breast, sans nipple shield, sans ceremony. I thought he might find some comfort noodling around with my nipple, smelling my scent. (Because the fenugreek has apparently infiltrated my every gland, I smell like the unwashed nether folds of Mrs. Butterworth, thanks for asking.)
My friends, he nursed like a motherfucking champ.
He latched. He sucked. He gulped and swallowed and practically chewed with his mouth open and drank the contents of his finger bowl. When I switched him to the other breast once he'd seemed to slow down, he took to it like, um, like a mammal to milk.
That boy can nurse.
However, since I'd managed to get in some pumping while he howled unhappily in the swing, I knew my breasts weren't full, so when he dropped off my breast a while later and still looked hungry, I investigated the bottle I'd been trying to give him when our peaceful mealtime went to hell. I thought maybe the milk had gone sour, so — I can't believe I did this, much less that I am confessing it — I put the nipple in my mouth and gave it an experimental suck.
Nothing happened. No milk, though the bottle was half full.
A few more sucks and...something...worked its way free. The holes in the nipple had been blocked, and all of Charlie's formidable sucking power could not dislodge that...something.
My boy was yelling, and my boy nursed at last because he was practically starving.
We finally slept, with Charlie dropping off exhausted and me eventually drifting off after making grand plans to sweep into the lactation consultant's office, Charlie nursing contentedly in his sling, modestly declaring that it was really nothing, after all. Just a little patience was all it took! (It goes without saying that in my vision, I was svelte, Charlie was cherubic, and the sling had an impeccable cut, making me look fashionable and maternal all at once.)
This morning I pumped a bit first to get my letdown going, and put him to breast again, eager to hold the ground we'd gained last night.
And he would have none of it.
None.
He screamed. He wailed. He would not latch. He would not suck. He hated my breasts again, or still.
I'm fucked. As long as I lactate, I hope. As long as I hope, I'll try. And as long as I try, I suspect he will scream. I am fucked, my friends. Just fucked.
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Oh hon. :(
I wish I had some wisdom to impart. But you've got Charlie, you've got Paul, you've got you. Just do what works and enjoy your baby, like the Lac said.
I've had nights that were opposite that - no idea why or how, but that's what it was. No amount of nursing did it, 2 ounces from a bottle he'd been refusing for weeks and *poof* - back to refusing after one "good" night.
Just keep trying each for as long as you feel you can do so without guilting yourself into insanity from spreading yourself too thin, and then sit back and just do what works.
Maybe you should....talk to a lactation consultant.
Good thing I'm a thousand miles away and you don't know my real name, or I'd be dead now, no?
It is SUCH an up and down struggle, but it is incredibly promising to think that Charlie (a) does know how to nurse and (b) does know how to nurse. You got to him when his defenses were down, so my assvice would be to keep on trying to catch him there--half asleep, drowsing, in the bathtub, right after your pancake breakfast, whenever.
Of course, what got to him this time was frustration with the bottle. So you could switch to clogged nipples every time, only, hmmm, that doesn't sound quite right.
But look, Charlie nursed. That might mean you'll not be spending $500 on formula this year after all. Keep us posted.
P.S. The roller coaster sucks. It just does. If it were me, heartless nurser of three that I am, I'd just throw out the bottles for a day and see if you can outlast Charlie. But (a) it's not me; and (b) your kid might just outlast you.
Oh, Oh, Oh
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The vision of you sucking on that bottle
HAHAHAHA
Oh, I'm bad. I know I shouldn't laugh. But I've always unscrewed the top and sniffed the inside; I never would have –
HAHAHAHAHA
Oh shit. Well, you gained some insight into both your son AND the art of bottle-washing! (Squirt some water throught the nipple with your thumb to make sure it's clear, or, of you're Julie, just try sucking milk through it!)
Gah.
My dog just threw up on the rug, if that makes you feel any better.
Dog/baby, totally the same thing, right?
Maybe he doesn't like Mrs. Butterworth??? and he'll only eat it when he's starving?
Maybe if you eat nothing except Ben & Jerry's today.??
So um.. what did the milk taste like??
I'm a lurker, and I have to de-lurk now. You are NOT fucked. I know this sounds awful, but maybe if you gave him a pacifier until he got really pissed off, he could learn to love your breasts. I agree with whatever mynn said. Back to lurking...
I'm sorry. I meant Jody. I agree with what Jody said.
I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this Julie...
Fuck fuckity fuck fuck fuck.
I'm sorry Julie, that must have been so awesome having him nurse like that. I got no assvice, I just hope he figures it all out soon.
fucked or no, you've got the best sense of humor I've ever read.
Sorry things have been so ...gah.
I had a very similar experience. My 5 week old dd had not latched yet. I was pumping and feeding her with a medecine dropper. I was exhausted and ready to give up. As a last ditch effort I tried her to the breast one last time. She latched on and nursed like a champ. The next time she wanted nothing. It was tough and I cried lots. Those next few weeks were a roller coaster but we spent lots of time in bed and skin to skin and eventually she got it. Now she's 5 1/2 months old and she will only take the breast, no bottle. That's a whole different problem though! :-) Good Luck!
Hi, Julie!
I've been reading you for a while and now, I hope you forgive me, I have a word of assvice for you. :)
Hang in there, you're a great mother and you are doing the best you can. Try more skin-to-skin contact and no shield, maybe that could work. And enjoy your baby, you sure deserve it!
Good luck!
Love,
Joana
YOU NEED A HOLE-LESS NIPPLE FOR THE BOTTLE! And then you give him that until he is GOOD AN ENRAGED, so it is the OPPOSITE! The bottle is the frustrating one, see, and then the BREAST comes and it is COMPARATIVELY so much easier and so he....or wait, that might be child abuse. Never mind. *sigh* It seemed like a good idea at the TIME.
Hang in there! He'll get it, and if he doesn't, there are other ways to feed him and he'll have gotten a NICE BIG DOSE of antibodies because you toughed this hard part out...you're doing GREAT!
Our pediatrician taught us an important lesson when we were trying to wean Seth: A child will never starve itself. That explains why Charlie was willing to take the breast; he was finally hungry enough to take anything.
I realize you're in a different situation, but Seth was a bear to get started on the breast as well. Forunately, we had a great lactation specialist, who I'd hunt down through the hospital and drag her to my wife, who at one point was on the verge of having a meltdown.
We quickly learned during the process to never give a child an easier way to feed in the first 6-8 weeks. Since Charlie is getting older, you may want to 1. Find a different lactation specialist and 2. Talk to your doctor to see if Charlie is now big enough to let go hungry for a day or so to persuade him that the breast is the way to go. Keep giving him the pacifier until he decides, whoa the breast is way better.
Oh and one other thing: I kept telling Seth, "This is the last time you are going to see a woman's breast until your late teens or early 20s. Enjoy it while you can." Eighteen months later, we had to pry him away using the jaws of life, so he clearly took those words to heart.
(P.S., Seth never fell for binkies. He wanted the real thing.)
*crunch crunch munch*
All of a sudden I'm craving waffles with maple syrup and a big glass of milk.
I wish this were easier for you, my friend.
Uh, what would happen if you just stopped using the bottle for 48 hours? And stopped doing anything else, but just stayed in bed or on the couch, shirtless, watching VH1 Classic? At the very least Charlie would get a good education in 80s hair metal bands and New Edition videos. And then you'd at least feel like you were running a pure experiment. (I think that it wasn't just the hunger but also the nighttime that made Charlie nurse. Apparently babies who are having latch problems or refusing the breast--unless they have the evil nipple shield crutch-- tend to nurse better at night because they're so sleepy and they just do it instead of overthinking it. So if you could recreate the nighttime effect of sleepiness and relaxation and have the bottle not be an option, you might be in better shape.)
I couldn't eat maple syrup for a year after all the fenugreek.
I'm so so sorry this is such an assfest for you.
No advice. When my boy was a wee infant, my mother took one look at his nursing shenanigans and tantrums and proclaimed him to be a little tyrant. That's what they are - they are little tyrants.
We bottle fed my son. At about 3 weeks (he was not a preemie) he was SO FUSSY at the nighttime feeding and we couldn't figure it out...he was NOT a fussy little one...finally, I tried the next size up nipple and he was happy. They seem to know when their sucking power exceeds the size/number of the holes. Might be worth a try.
Sweetie, forgive yourself. Do what you need to to get through the day.
I'm not sure if you want to exclusively breastfeed or not (I may have missed it somewhere)
But if you do, whoever said the baby won't starve himself is right. He may get mad (and I mean PISSED, the same way my daughter did when I tried to give her a bottle once) but eventually he'll take the boob.
It means more work for you of course (no bottles) but eventually he'll take it.
Milk > No Milk
I am sorry. Why do they have to torture so early? You know one day the boy won't be able to get enough of breasts, wish it was starting now.
My daughter was born at 34 weeks-- not as early as Charlie, but she still had to take pumped milk at the start. She was spoiled by the oh-so-convenient nipples they had in the NICU, and absolutely, resolutely refused to nurse. I had had two previous children, born full term, so I knew I was capable of nursing a child. This is the ONLY reason it eventually worked with my daughter. In the end, we just duked it out. I called the ped to find out how long I could let her go without eating. They said twelve hours, max. So I waited her out. It was absolutely hellish, but when she was hungry enough she latched on and nursed like a champ. Like Charlie, she wouldn't take the breast the next time I offered it. But-- it took a lot less time for her to give in. Within a couple of days she was nursing exclusively, and after a week or so she got her revenge by refusing the bottle ever after. This is just my story, of course, so I have no idea if things would work out this way for anyone else. Just thought I would pass on my (somewhat) similar experience. Good luck!
That Hope, she's a bitch, eh?
Well, I have no more unsolicited words of comfort or advice, but my email is enabled.
Thanks for sharing your struggles with us, still. If you don't mind, and Julia will share her popcorn, I'll be sitting back and watching to see how it all ends...
I agree about the hunger thing working wonders- it does actually work, but it would be worrisome for a wee while. However, more milk is made as the infant nurses, so even if you thought you had pumped all there was to obtain, there would still have been milk for him, and the good hind stuff. If you can muster the courage to make him go cold turkey on the bottles, it may well work. Also you can actually cup-feed infants (used to be used to feed infants with cleft palates, still used by people worried about nipple confusion).
PS: you can breastfeed lying down in bed, half-or whole-asleep- I spent about the first year of each child's life doing so at night- so you wouldn't have to be up at night unless you have strong views about co-sleeping.
Hang in there!
"He'd suck on his bottle, but a few pulls in he'd start arching back, making a terribly angry face, and screaming."
Julie, Charlie is the right age to develop colic and, being a preemie, reflux. Talk to your ped about it, but if it's reflux there's a prescription for it (zantac of all things) helps. ALso, holding him uprigth after a feeding for 10-20 minutes and then putting him to sleep in an infant seat at about 30 degrees angle to keep the stomach juices down. I don't know a single preemie who didn't have reflux. All three of mine did. Anyway, it's something to consider.
Your post was a riot - your situation, definately unfunny. I've been there and just wanted to say hang in there :-) I've had the opposite problem too- trust me - they will eat when they are hungry enough. It seems mean- but I bet it would be a quick switchover, especially since you know he is fully capable of it. Most babies don't hold out for more than 48 hours- especially one as young as yours (wait til they are a few months older, though, and you'll go insane waiting for them to give in).
Though my son was in the NICU only four days, he had the same problems going from bottle to breast that you have described in these posts. He would latch, suck, and then pull of and cry. It took approximately two weeks of nursing frustration for him to get the hang of it, but he did. It was two weeks of hellish "he nursed great last time after only a few seconds of screaming? Why is he having so many problems this time?" I felt like I had to teach him how to nurse every. single. time. I fed him, and as you know that's someting like, um, six times a day? Eight? But I just ballsed (is that a word) it and didn't really pump and just kept offering him the breast - no shield, nothing. I only pumped when he cracked one of my nipples and I had to keep him off of it for a day. And, slowly, agonizingly, he got it. And it eventually stopped hurting, too.
It is frustrating. I just wanted to chime in that you're not alone. I cried every time I nursed him for at least two weeks (my memories are foggy of that time, it could have been three weeks). But he got it. Of course now he's 19 months old and won't stop.
So, I'm going to be of absolutely no help here, but I should have warned you about clogged nipples on bottles.
When we had given up on breast feeding because I was taking pain killers and having to go to the emergency ward at least once a week for demoral to get me through the gallstone attacks, I thought it would be wise and go visit my mother 1,000 miles away.
She had two kids, and although this was her first grandchild, I figured she knew what she was doing. So, when I had to test to see if the province of BC would accept my health care card from Alberta and hang out the emergency ward all day, I figured she could handle feeding the child. Mind you it was formula, and it was the powdered stuff, I figured she knew what to do.
So, while I sat in an emergency ward and writhed in pain for over 5 hours, my mother dealt with a screaming 3 1/2 month old, who kept rooting around her breasts when she held his little screaming body against her chest because he was so HUNGRY.
I got home, all doped up, grabbed the bottle she had been trying to foist on him for several hours, sucked on it, got the flow moving and shoved it in his mouth. Why she didn't just get another bottle is beyond me, but that kid was never so happy to have food.
So, I guess my point is, if he's hungry enough, he'll nurse. It's easier for them to drink out of a bottle. It's like anything with us humans, we'll take the easy way out.
So, now that I've been an assclown and given you assvice, I'll leave now.
Delurking.
I went through something like this with my daughter, and boy, do I know that frustration. Pumping sucks, no two ways about it--but I still agree that the main thing is that you are enjoying your baby and not tormenting yourselves over some "ideal." So this is wear I should shut up, but instead...
Our lactation consultants had us on this routine where at each feeding, I tried to get the Girl to nurse, but only for 5-10 minutes max. If she wasn't doing it after 10 minutes, she got the bottle and I pumped. It took a week or two, and we had a couple of false starts, but eventually she just decided she didn't hate my boobs anymore. (And you probably already know all about this. Sorry.)
And you know what the irony will be, right? Your son is destined to grow up to be a breast man...
I'm telling you, try the supplementer: http://www.lact-aid.com/webmap.htm.
I'm truly learning so much here. Truly.
Hi. I am breastfeeding my third child, now 11 months old. And I distinctly remember just how difficult the breastfeeding was to get going with my first child. Seriously, when she was 12 weeks old I finally felt like I was just getting the hang of it- that's 3 months later!! It takes time and a lot of getting used to but it was soooooo worth the perseverance for me. I think I will breastfeed our third (and final!) child until his 21st birthday! Good luck.
Delurking:
Maybe the smell of the breast pump is lingering on your breast? You mentioned that you had pumped a little so that let down would be easier, maybe the pump left a smell of soap or something that he doesn't like. Just a thought.
Julie,
Have you considered trying a nursing supplementer? Here is a link about them from Kellymom (a fantastic site, BTW) http://www.fourfriends.com/abrw/Darillyn's/supplementers.htm but he basic idea is that you can put your EBM or formula in a bag that has a tube running to a nippleshield like thing. The baby gets the milk immediately, as with a bottle, but is also stimulating the milk production and getting used to nursing.
I'd say since he managed it last night, if he is growing well enough, it might be time for a 24 hour test. Drop the bottle, snuggle with him in bed and just keep putting him to the breast. If he goes a few hours without getting anything, pump so you don't lose supply, but don't feed him from a bottle. He might (OK will) cry a lot but eventually he will be hungry enough to make it happen, just like last night. A few more times like that and I really belive you will have him converted! ;)
That said, I would not question you at all if you decided to just quit and enjoy him. I think it will take something fairly extreem to convince him that nursing is good and it just may not be worth the heartbreak.
Good luck, I wish you peace with your decision, whatever it is. And no matter what, make sure you do get to enjoy that sweet one!
Wanted to chime in here,
I'm not sure if it's available in the States, but here in Canada Lactation consultants will give you a free supplementer.
They work wonders. I had to use one when I brought my daughter home because she lost too much weight in the hospital.
[chiming in from the cheap seats]
Hee hee, now the supplementer/LactAid/SNS has replaced the lactation consultant as the Panacea to End All Panaceae.
But really, a supplementer is no more magical than the nipple sombrero or going bareback (or rather barefront). It can help, or it can be just as frustrating to mom and infant as anything else.
And once you've had a successful nursing session sans all artificial tubing, syringes, nipples, and surgical tape, well, it doesn't really make sense to go BACKWARD to using one of those crutches unless you want to KEEP using them.
At this point, knowing that Charlie's neurological circuits ARE firing well enough to coordinate the nursing function, and it's entirely a matter of habit and preference, well, Moxie and others are probably right that if you want to go for it, it's going to be white-knuckle time for a while. Mano a mano, baby vs. boobie.
How is Paul doing with all this mammary drama?
My daughter sucked on a bottle for an hour before I realized the nipple was blocked. See what sleep deprivation will do. She never cried. I kept wondering why the bottle was still full! I can be a little slow. Now I bite the nipple before I give it to her.
I have never gone through such different levels of emotion from one blog post. [Oh my gosh I'm so sorry ... good Lord but you're funny ... and you're even funnier than THAT ... wow what an unbelievable thing for him to do, after all that ... oh my gosh I'm so sorry.]
You are such a gifted writer.
Milk density changes during each nurse, if you had pumped a bit, Charlie got the more dense and nutritive milk instead of the first more watery one. Maybe you can try to pump a bit next time you try to breastfeed, to recreate the situation that worked once.
The advice on leaving Charlie hungry so he is more "motivated" to latch is probably going to work but only if you and Paul shield heavily yourselves: it's very difficult to hear him cry when you know what you can do to satisfy him. We did that when weaning my daughter, because she wouldn't accept bottle and I had to return to work, and it was not easy.
Whatever you do, it will be the best option. Good luck !
Uh, I said it wrong isn't it? Maybe you shouldn't pump so the situation is similar to that night. Whatever.
Julie, you said you knew that your breasts weren't full when he started the nursing session, and that's why you checked out the bottle -
Just wanted to be sure you knew that the body will make milk on demand while the baby is nursing (e.g. having a second letdown) so it doesn't matter whether or not you start out full. More nursing = more milk. Or, in other words, the baby makes the milk.
There are a lot of reasons for a baby to be unhappy after eating, that don't have anything to do with hunger. Gas, needing to pee but not wanting to (my dd just didn't like to pee), temperature, feeling overfull, noise in the room (tv-radio-cds) someone wearing perfume... or just being tired. A baby that just nursed like a champ is not likely to be hungry.
Trust yourself! There's nothing wrong with your body now. You can do this.
When I was pumping for my baby, I used to get all paranoid that I wouldn't have any left over for when she would nurse. That's not how the body works though, lucky for them!
Well fuck. No wisdom from me of course, this just sucks rock majorly.
Hey! More advice here!!!
http://www3.fertilethoughts.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=293227
From what you said, I don't think that you're fucked, I think that it can be fucking hard to nurse a first child.
I would keep offerring that breast. I would just keep doing it 24/7. The kid latched on that nipple and ate like a champ. (If he did it once, he can do it again...)I would do that constantly. None of this every three hours stuff, I would do it every 2 hours or more often during the day, and not letting mroe than three hours go by at night. (It can be done. I had a kid with reflux and did it hourly during the day.)
IF you are committed to make this work (and that is entirely up to YOU), then I would get a "never say die" LC to work with you, both in person and over the phone. Read Kathleen Huggins' "Nursing Mother's Companion", The Womanly Art of Breasfeeding by the LLL(ignoring the political stuff for the moment) and The Baby Book by Dr William Sears. (And anything else that you can get your hands on...)
If you have something like the La Leche League in your area, join it and get free advice and emotional support.
The is no 'rule' that you have to breastfeed. There is no breastfeeding police. You can BF as long or as short as you want to.
But if you want to? Tap into the relentless spirit that you have..the one that wouldn't quit until you got pregnant and had that baby...and use it until you get to the place in BF where you can either just nurse...or that around the clock pumping is just something that you do.
And bitch to your friends. And get on here and blog your guts out...
Btw, your reference to your schedule not being exact. THAT is what motherhood looks like...it's not the schedule that we create, it's all about the 'ifs ands or buts". Things change a lot during the first five years of life. Nothing is written in stone. Kid gets colic. Kid gets a cold. Teething. Developmental leaps. Growth spurts. You name it, it will 'change' things. Oftentimes you can have more than one thing happening at a time. And it's all perfectly normal. (If you take away nothing from my post, memorize THIS last paragraph.) Tag team parenting is very common. It's about doing what works at any given time. Like I said to a friend about getting sleep. "If Mommy is sleeping, baby is sleeping and Daddy is sleeping, it doesn't matter if you're all in three different places (floor, bed, chair ,whatever) and one of you is wearing a snorkel and a tutu".
Breastfeed or don't, honey. I breastfed two kids, roughly three years each. I know what it can take, especially at the beginning. You would not be committing a sin to quit. Or you could do both. Or not.
But get some really good help with it if you choose to do it.
I agree with moxie, he will not starve himself, he just showed you.
After this new development, I would stop pumping and let him have it at the breast until he gets that it is the only place where he gets his nourishment. It is going to be hell for a while, but he will latch on again since he just showed you that he will eventually nurse and he is good at it. The best part is that you will be the only one to remember all of this, he won't, and he WILL be OK.
Laura
Wow, it never occured to me to SUCK on the bottle, I always just pinched the nipple and sprayed milk across the room.
I'll have to agree w the moms who said - could be reflux, could be you need to let him get the hind milk, could be he wants to nurse lying down-my boys still love that.
Good luck - you are a tough mama
"I smell like the unwashed nether folds of Mrs. Butterworth, thanks for asking."
I'm sorry but I can't stop laughing at this. My lactation consultant (milk nazi) put me on Fennel and Fenugreek as well -- and oh the smell! I did smell syrupy! So FUNNY!
Charlie is just evil. Pure evil.
My daughter was similarly evil - nipple confusion led to a nursing strike, combined with reflux, and I was positive she hated my nipples. She howled, I cried, but ultimately, I proved to be more stubborn than her (although 4+ years later, she's again proving more stubborn than me) and I got her back on the boob. She was vastly more amenable to nursing during the wee hours.
Here are a few links on how to get Charlie to love your nipples as much as he did last night. My experience was that I had to try a bunch of things to find what worked for us. I hope you can get SOMETHING worked out so you can get to a point where you're both happy with Charlie's eating habits.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/BFBasics/messages?msg=119.1
http://www.lalecheleague.org/NB/NBNovDec92p173.html
http://www.kjsl.net/%7Ecee/confuse.htm
http://www.kellymom.com/bf/start/concerns/pacifier.html#confusion