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06/02/2005

Fundies, slaves, junkies, gays, and 'Flakes

Tonight before he finally dropped off — making a clunk so loud you probably heard it and loosed your bowels in sudden fright — Charlie cried for an hour and a half. So you will forgive me, perhaps, if I am not eloquent as I sputter in rage about this article on "embryo adoption" from the New York Times:

Randy and Julie McClure had three children who were long out of diapers and no plans for more when they heard about a program called Snowflakes, which arranges for women to become pregnant with embryos left over at fertility clinics.

"We really felt like the Lord was calling us to try to give one of these embryos, these children, a chance to live," Ms. McClure said.

Mr. McClure, though, disliked the fertility business, which he felt created extra embryos that were often destroyed or aborted. He feared that paying fees to receive the embryos would be helping an industry "that I have real problems with."

He consulted a Southern Baptist church elder, who advised him, " 'If you want to free the slaves, sometimes you have to deal with the slave trader,' " Mr. McClure said.

Randall, Randall, Randall.

Slaves?

I don't even know how to begin. I'd blame Charlie for that but the very analogy is so overblown, so intentionally inflammatory, so breathtakingly...well, wrong that even had he not perforated my eardrum with his scalded-cat cries, I suspect I'd be feeling a delicate touch of nauseated disequilibrium.

Yeah, boy, those eight cells are pretty grievously oppressed there in the dark, chilly confines of their cryo tank — hey, that's just like being abducted from your homeland, enduring an endless voyage on a floating Hell, and disembarking to find yourself owned. Why, lingering in insensate stasis is every bit as bad as being branded, mutilated, and hanged for disobedience. Yep, postponing telophase? That right there is a dream deferred, my friends, and therefore a dream denied.

If a frozen ball of human cells not visible to the naked eye and a thinking, feeling, fully potentiated person are even remotely equivalent, I'll eat Abe Lincoln's moldering stovepipe hat.

As an aside, I might take the McClures' claim of altruism a little more seriously if, instead of "adopting" those embryos themselves, they'd paid to have them transferred to an infertile couple who truly desire a child for his or her own sake, rather than shouldering what sounds suspiciously like white man's burden to win points with the Big Guy.

Now: why am I using scare quotes?

People on this part of the political spectrum have begun calling the process "embryo adoption," echoing the phrase that Snowflakes uses instead of "embryo donation." [...] The adoption terminology irritates the fertility industry, abortion rights advocates and supporters of embryonic stem cell research, who believe that the language suggests - erroneously, they maintain - that an embryo has the same status as a child.

But for some conservative Christians, that is precisely the point.

I'd be curious to know what adoption advocates — um, adoption-of-children advocates — think of this. If the McClures above are any indication of the sentiment behind embryo "adoption," I'd imagine it would rankle. While people who've adopted babies generally express reverence and gratitude, knowing what a priceless gift they've been given, the people discussed in the article who "adopt" frozen embryos seem to think they're doing those sad forsaken embryos some kind of favor. It's a little too close to the way some people tell adoptive parents how noble they are for taking in that poor unfortunate child of a filthy junkie.

Okay, that was unfair of me. The "filthy junkie" part goes unsaid. Usually.

But [embryo "adoption"] is not without risks. [Once] embryos are donated, only half survive the thawing process, and of those, only about 35 percent result in a baby. One mother died last year from pregnancy complications, said Lori Maze, director of Snowflakes.

Stop the presses! Pregnancy with donated embryos can be risky! Sort of like, um, any other kind of pregnancy. Thank you, New York Times, for the breaking motherfucking news.

In my opinion, it's disingenuous to mourn the embryos that don't make it through the thaw, or those that don't implant and become a continuing pregnancy, without acknowledging the waste — eggs that don't fertilize, embryos that don't implant, pregnancies that don't continue — built into even unassisted conception. (Disingenuous, that is, unless they're your embryos, in which case I'll hand you the Kleenex and pat your shoulder clumsily but with love.) Thanks to diligent work and a few blinding strokes of genius, science has been able to improve on nature's pregnancy rates, which hover around 25% for fertile couples in any given month. A 35% pregnancy rate isn't a risk; it's a triumph.

To carry an embryo, Ms. McClure [...] first had to undergo surgery to remove polyps. Then, most of the 13 embryos proved unviable, and one round of embryo implantation failed before she finally had a successful pregnancy using the final embryo.

Those embryos that proved unviable: were they "just [children] at an earlier stage of development" if they were chromosomally incapable of ever increasing beyond six or seven days' growth? Or of ever living outside the womb?

What about those that were normal but didn't, for whatever reason, implant? What if those embryos had found a more hospitable uterus than Julie McClure's? Would they have grown into fully developed children? Given the conservative aspirations toward a so-called "culture of life," can we say, if they were normal, that Julie McClure killed them?

These are philosophical questions that trouble greater minds than mine. Right now my own mind is fit for little more than doggedly counting aloud as I measure formula to make sure Charlie's next bottle isn't served chunky style, requiring a fork and a set of lobster crackers. But I do know where I stand on this issue. I do know that my failed embryos weren't people, no matter how hard the Christian right tries to convince me they were. If they were people, they'd be here now. If they were children, I'd have a houseful.

Couples adopting or donating Snowflakes embryos are mostly Christian, and most embryo donors are white, Ms. Maze said.

"Mostly Christian." Mostly. Hmmm. I would like to know which other denominations are represented. I asked Paul what he thought. He said in a doubtful tone, "Well, Christians...um...and then maybe Episcopalians..."

Couples must agree to adoption-like procedures: receiving families are screened and must undergo counseling, and Snowflakes allows donating and receiving families to designate criteria for each other, meet and maintain contact after birth.

Now I can hear you thinking, But this doesn't sound entirely unreasonable. I mean, really, if you consider...

Wait! Stop thinking! Time for a field trip! Fun with Google: snowflakes embryo adoption.

Not entirely unreasonable. Mmmm-hm. Now how come it costs prospective parents more to, ah, rescue unborn children with Snowflakes — at least $6800 — than it does to receive donated embryos — simply the cost of an FET plus legal fees? It seems that the additional cost pays to vet the prospective parents to make sure they're not, you know, fruity.

Those conditions were fine with Bob and Angie Deacon of Virginia Beach, Va., who donated their 13 embryos [...]. "With another program, to be honest with you, they could have been adopted by lesbian parents, and I'm totally against that," said Mr. Deacon, 35.

You know, I wish I had a clutch of embryos in the freezer so I could box 'em up and send 'em off to the lesbians right now. The only stipulation would be that any lesbian who conceived boy/girl twins would be legally obligated to name them Bob and Angie Deacon.

I like to think I am tough but fair. Just ask Charlie, who is so grounded after tonight's histrionics.

And this kind of discrimination, this unapologetically religious mission is being subsidized by the United States government (also known as you and me, my friend, you and heathen me):

Health and Human Services has given grants to Snowflakes and other organizations specifically to promote "embryo adoption." Several groups that oppose the term embryo adoption, including the American Fertility Association, have also received federal grants and used the money to educate couples that embryo donation is one option among many.

I can only hope that the American Fertility Association is using their grant money to continue to fight the good fight on behalf of gay sperm donors.

And to wrap things up, we have a photo op, complete with using children to advance a political agenda. If Charlie's screaming earlier didn't cause you to evacuate your bowels in fear, maybe this will:

[...] To protest a bill supporting the use of embryos for stem cell research, President Bush appeared with the McClures and 20 other Snowflakes families, kissing the babies, some of whom wore T-shirts that said "former embryo," or "this embryo was not discarded." Federal and state lawmakers have held similar appearances.

It certainly scares the shit out of me.

...

A reader sent mail suggesting I mention these alternatives for those who'd like to donate or receive donated embryos:

There are also other agencies doing embryo donation that don’t get anywhere near the publicity as Snowflakes. Consequently, potential donors who are turned off by Snowflakes feel like they have nowhere to go and they either destroy their embryos or let them languish in storage forever. One way to help is to publicize the other alternatives every time you mention how troubled you are by Snowflakes.

It is unfortunate that Snowflakes, with its religious bent, gets all the press, because there are other organizations out there that do embryo donation (or even embryo adoption), that don’t charge such outrageous fees or require that families go through so many hoops. If you want to make a difference in this area, one way to do it is to mention alternatives to Snowflakes — I wish the NY Times article had done so. Here are some of the alternatives:

  1. Donate/Receive anonymously through your own clinic or to another clinic that accepts outside embryos (Cooper Center is one). The downside/upside depending on your perspective is that donors/recipients know nothing about each other and have no way of contacting one another should there ever be a need (medical or psychological) in the future. Additionally, if there are multiple straws (12 embies divided into 3 or 4 straws each), they may be divided up to multiple families. Often the donors aren’t even allowed to find out if the embies they donated resulted in a pregnancy or not.
  2. Donate to/Receive from a different agency. Agencies often will allow a full continuum of openness from totally closed (like the IVF clinics) to totally open (where you’ve met and know each other’s names, addresses, phone numbers) to everything in between (contact, but only through the agency). Among agencies that do embryo donation/adoption are:

    1. Theresa Erickson is a lawyer who runs Conceptual Options and she treats it more like a legal transaction/property transfer than an adoption. Of course it's so much more than a "property transfer," but for legal purposes, that treatment gives both parties the legal protection given the current state of the law. (There isn't really anything specific to embryo donation/adoption on the books YET.) Unfortunately, the waiting list at Conceptual Options is really long. I think they have about 25 couples/singles hoping to get chosen by a donor at the moment. Many on the waiting list have been on the waiting list for a year or more and have not been selected. The cost of the legal fees is generally about $2000 for the recipient family.
    2. For those wanting more of a religious affiliation but who are concerned about the costs of Snowflakes, there is Embryos Alive. They do not require a home study, but do require more information from donors including certification of medical health; copies of health, life, and homeowners' insurance; copies of driving records; etc. The cost of the agency fees (including legal paperwork) is generally about $3000-3500 for the recipient family. Due to a recent wave of donations, the waiting list is not that long (although, as is true with Conceptual Options, since the donors pick, it really doesn't matter how long you are on the list; it's more a matter of how much your profile appeals to the donors).
    3. Miracles Waiting is coming out soon (hopefully July) — this will be a resource center for both donors and potential recipients. I believe it will include a bulletin board to facilitate matching among donors/recipients.

Thank you to the kind reader who took the time to compile this list.

Posted by Julie at 11:11 PM in I've learned a lot...but I'm not sure it's worth it. | Permalink

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» Who says the GOP isn't the party of progress? from Redneck Mother
I'll say again: When Republicans say they are for smaller government, they mean a tiny government that fits inside your uterus, because apparently even an omniscient and omnipresent God can't be everywhere judging and smiting everyone at once. And... [Read More]

Tracked on Jun 7, 2005 10:39:07 AM

» Embryo Adoption from Raising WEG
Several excellent critiques have already been written, among them Julie's at A Little Pregnant. This is my contribution to the debate. I think Snowflakes is icky. Icky icky icky. [Read More]

Tracked on Jun 7, 2005 3:56:02 PM

Comments (117)

"Why, lingering in insensate stasis is every bit as bad as being branded, mutilated, and hanged for disobedience. Yep, postponing telophase? That right there is a dream deferred, my friends, and therefore a dream denied."

Hah! I think I just figured out why I hang out (lurking) with all the infertile girls...because reading a great piece like this is like reading an essay on biology, an op-ed piece, an American cultural dissection and a really hilarious humor composition. Um, all rolled into one.

Thanks for making me laugh and making me think.

Posted by: Patty at Jun 2, 2005 11:44:11 PM

That is truly, truly disturbing. That people have the time and energy to do and think of these things, and not apply them to something worthwile.

Someone should show up to one of these *apearances* wearing a "I support stem cell research... but only as a byproduct of my support for killing babies" T-shirt.

Posted by: Faedra at Jun 3, 2005 12:19:38 AM

Wowie Zowie Batgirl!
That was a real zinger...

Thank God someone finally clarified that Episcopalians are not Christian.

Posted by: Upnorth or not at Jun 3, 2005 12:27:36 AM

And you thought Ep-cops were Satanists!

I owe you e-mail and will write it tomorrow.

Posted by: Julie at Jun 3, 2005 12:29:10 AM

Brava!!!

Posted by: Kathleen at Jun 3, 2005 12:31:00 AM

One small flicker: our president is either too fucking stupid, or unwilling, to latch onto the Snowflakes agenda directly. He was asked about it specifially during his last press conference, but instead meandered off into catch phrases about stem cell research and "creating a culture of life" (i.e., condemning millions of Africans to die of AIDS because condom use is immoral and condones premarital sex and now I'm on a big soapbox, blah blah blah).

But yeah, those thousands of dollars being spent to "rescue" cell clusters? How about spending it on adopting a child who is already here and would very much like to be rescued instead. There's one thought. (A thought related only to this issue, and not to adoption vs. fertility treatments in general, a debate in which I step out of the ring and say "do what feels right for you.")

Posted by: squid at Jun 3, 2005 1:01:48 AM

Finally we know how Gay people are produced. It is all because Gay men donate sperm. Hum, wait a minute, does that mean that all gay children have been created by a women who has had sex with a gay man. Or is it even worse does the Gay Fertility Fairy come around at night and plant his deadly seed. Gad dangit it is more than a sensible women can stand.

Posted by: jo at Jun 3, 2005 1:09:04 AM

God, you're awesome. How you can form such intelligent and clever and strong and funny thoughts with a newborn is beside me. Especially on an issue that frankly makes me wonder if I'm living in the twilight zone. I was enraged when I read the NYT article, right after I read Cecily's blog today, and practically had an aneurism. I'm still screaming expletives, but can't seem to figure out what I personally can do to help get this country back on track. Newsstories like this make me want to run for the border and never look back.

And one of the previous commenters hinted at op-ed. You really need to consider getting yourself published in an op-ed. You're brilliant.

~kat
Maternity Genes

Posted by: Kat at Jun 3, 2005 1:32:46 AM

Thank you so much for writing this post. I was just too stunned by this article to do anything. As someone who's considering using donor embryos to build my own family, I find Snowflakes to be very scary and don't want to associate myself at all with these folks.

Posted by: millie at Jun 3, 2005 1:35:00 AM

Brilliant piece. I definitely think you should submit it around as an op-ed. I haven't read writing as incisive, witty, and brilliant as this in newsprint in years.

For those of you who read this and are sputtering with rage and wishing you could do something about this, there are things you can do:

1. Write a letter to the NY Times with your reaction to the piece.
2. Write a letter to your local paper presenting YOUR views on this scheme, to which taxpayer funds are now being allocated.
3. Write to your congressman and your two senators protesting the use of federal taxpayer funds to promote "embryo adoption".
4. Cross-post about this to other newsgroups and blogs.
5. Contact your local news media to tell YOUR story about IVF and your opinion on who should decide the fate of your embryos - you, or the government? Remember, women who have had children through IVF, usually creating at least some "enslaved" embryos in the process, FAR FAR FAR outnumber those who think they are doing the world a service by oh-so-selflessly "saving" those enslaved embryos. It's just that they have captured the imagination of the media. But you CAN often get attention to tell your side of the story, especially in local media.
6. Monitor your state legislature to keep an eye out for bills promoting "embryo adoption" programs, especially if they allocate your taxpayer funds for this.

I was introduced to this remarkable blogging community through my efforts to raise awareness about the heinous miscarriage reporting bill in Virginia this year, and I'm now an avid reader of many infertility-related blogs because I love the writing and I love the community!

But I was truly in awe of the political power that you wielded as a group when I saw how quickly the activism of women in the infertility blogosphere resulted in the killing of that heinous bill. Not only did the legislator who introduced the bill get hundreds of impassioned emails about it, but women throughout Virginia took it upon themselves to contact their local TV stations and newspapers to protest the bill. And in less than a week, we stopped it in its tracks. It was amazing!

We have more power than we know. Modern American society, with us as passive consumers of an oversaturation of horrible and sensational news, promotes a sense of powerlessness among us. But I try to remember, even as I want to beat my head against the wall daily as I read stuff like this, that we are not entirely powerless.

Julie, I am in awe of your writing ability!!! Even though I don't have even a smidgen of your talent, though, I know my writing about the issue on other blogs and to others can still make an impact.

Posted by: Maura in VA at Jun 3, 2005 2:32:17 AM

Julie makes part of a point that has been nagging me ever since I heard about those snowflake babies when she writes: "What about those that were normal but didn't, for whatever reason, implant? What if those embryos had found a more hospitable uterus than Julie McClure's? Would they have grown into fully developed children? Given the conservative aspirations toward a so-called 'culture of life,' can we say, if they were normal, that Julie McClure killed them?".

I have been lurking on this blog for a while, greatly enjoying Julie's prose but sometimes feeling a bit awkward since I didn't have any difficulty getting or remaining pregnant, so I am sorry if the following is badly formulated, but...

Taking it all a step further: when will those people start campaigning against letting infertiles actually use their own embryos after IVF because, you know, they have bad, bad wombs (sometimes horned, even) that have proven deadly to "children" in the past?

As soon as they manage to get all forms of abortion and contraception banned, maybe?

The whole thing is very scary.

Posted by: Agnes at Jun 3, 2005 2:44:17 AM

Hey!

I have an idea!!

Why don't YOU (and Cecily!) apply for one of those big-ass federal grants for "public awareness campaigns about embryo adoption"???

After all, what you write tonight is a public awareness campaign about embryo "adoption", is it not? So why shouldn't you get your fair share of the big federal payola, not just the Snowflake Christian Adoption team?

Click my name for the grant application - I'm SERIOUS!

(BTW, read the qualifications and tell me that this grant is not SPECIFICALLY written to benefit this one "embryo adoption" agency ONLY - it's transparent.)

Also, I just realized that while I'm busy writing letters, I might as well add one more -- a letter to the Office of Public Health and Science of the Department of Health and Human Services, for writing a grant using terminology (embryo "adoption") that is ideologically driven and which DOES NOT EXIST as either a medical or legal concept. It's embryo donation or reproductive tissue donation, not "adoption", assholes. (Okay, maybe I'll take "assholes" out of my letter.)

Seriously, we're all taxpayers. We oughta throw a serious hissy fit about taxpayer funds being used for THIS.

Posted by: Maura in VA at Jun 3, 2005 3:16:30 AM

Ever heard of the "ensoulment" argument? That when egg and sperm meet, the fertilized egg becomes ensouled/imbued with personhood/what ever you want to call it?

When you consider that somewhere between one third and one half of all of mother nature's fertilized eggs don't implant or miscarry within the first couple months, it seems like their god likes nothing better than killing babies. In fact, he probably doesn't have time to do much else - that's a whole lotta little souls to flush.

(Do identical twins split one soul? And the triplets get thirds? And if one doesn't make it, can the remaining embryos apply for a share of that third by calling the Ensoulment Bureau?)

What a nice god! Now that I understand how pointlessly cruel he is, it's easy to see why these couples would go to such personal expense and physical trial in order to "adopt" one of those little, mostly Caucasian, enslaved souls... because that's so much crueller than adopting a living, breathing (possibly non-caucasian) child who needs their help right now!

If they're so concerned about children, why not take a look into their state's foster system for crying out loud. Oh, right. That would be far too Christian.

Thank you for the post, Julie. Now I'm too riled up to sleep. :)

Posted by: Jenny at Jun 3, 2005 3:22:46 AM

Ugh. The whole artilce has me seething on many levels. And this post will be disjointed as a result.

What about the part where it reads:

Last week, the Food and Drug Administration issued guidelines that it said would "enhance the availability of embryos for donation," by exempting embryos from medical screenings required of donated tissues, like livers or corneas. Many frozen embryos could not have met the screening requirements because many couples are not tested for communicable diseases beforehand.

However, if I do IVF and use a gestational surrogate (because of a damaged uterus & not an "alternative" lifestyle as the current administration would like to think) as of May 25, 2005, I have to undergo these EXACT tests? Within 7 days of retrieval? Not something reasonable like 30 days before (like New York has required without issue), or before beginning supression or stimulation for a cycle, but within 7 days of retrieval. Read more here.

In fact with the original guidelines, the new rules mandated that couples who were interested in embryo donation must also have the infectious disease testing 7 days before retrieval. If they did not have this testing, they would not be able to donate embryos now or later.
Wonder who realized what dolts they all were when they figured out those regs would have meant more unused embryos than ever before?

However, if I do IVF and donate the embryos, the recipient doesn't need these tests results AT ALL from me or my spouse?

Nothing subtle there folks.

Guess my option of achieving parenthood doesn't conform with the current leadership's (and I use that term VERY loosely) "culture of life" agenda, and as a result I get to jump through all kinds of restrictive hoops.

Must be because to them I'm nothing but a serial baby murderess.

Nice.

Posted by: Boulder at Jun 3, 2005 5:39:21 AM

Why does the government fail to understand physiology? It is simple. I teach my undergraduates all about how amazingly perilous the journey from sperm and egg to adult human is, and how many things can go wrong. THEY get it. Embryos are not people. They are maybe-hints of what will become people and then 50% will not implant and a min. of 10% that do implant will be flushed out or resorbed. In perfectly healthy women. How does something that has less than a 50% chance of ever being born count as a person?

Mixing politics and science is dangerous business.

Can you imagine the shit one of those kids might get for being "rescued"? 1. worship the correct God 2. be constantly watched and have your genes blamed for shortcomings 3. be reminded that you were rescued and without the love of God and your parents you would be lying doomed in a cryogenic state with no chance to get to heaven.

It doesn't strike me as the most emotionally healthy way to live.

Posted by: Meganann at Jun 3, 2005 7:17:25 AM

One word, Julie: Amen!

Of course, Bob and Angie Deacon and their fears about embryos and lesbians... well, just another thing to fear! I mean, what could be a worse fate than to end up in a household with two mothers who adore you?

Posted by: WannaBeMom/Katie at Jun 3, 2005 8:18:17 AM

"I'd be curious to know what adoption advocates — um, adoption-of-children advocates — think of this."
A lot of adoptive parents object to the use of the term adopt to refer to anything besides adoption of a child -- adopt-a-highway, adopt-a-pet, zoo "adoption" programs, etc. Those things don't really bother me. But speaking as one adoptive mother -- um, adoptive-of-a-living-breathing-pooping-screaming-child mother, and not a cluster of frozen cells, who would probably be MUCH better behaved than my two-year-old, by the way -- I take far more offense at using the term "adoption" to describe this process then I do at the use of "adoption" in regards to pets, or even stretches of blacktop. "Adopt" implies a future of care and nurture, and with the odds of successful implanation pretty low at this point, and then there's the whole carrying-to-term issue, I'd guess more "Snowflakes" are going to end up destroyed than nurtured. Adoption my ass. Worry a little more about the actual children who are out there without parents, without homes, without enough food or clothes or medical care, and not tiny frozen cell-clusters who are probably quite content in their freezers, thank you.

Posted by: jen at Jun 3, 2005 8:50:57 AM

To add to the scariness, this article discusses the issue in glowing terms, using winning phrases like "frozen orphanage" and "pre-born children." Of course, it's the Christian Broadcasting Network (the same entity that blessed us with the 700 Club), so they might be a little biased.

Thank you for bringing attention to this organization and proving my sophomore English teacher right. She said that the Handmaid's Tale really could happen, given the proper political climate and just the right amount of dogmatic manure. Scary stuff indeed.

Just one question, completely out of ignorance: can you specify that any unused embryos must be used for stem cell research? If you can choose to donate embryos for potential gestation, can you also donate them to science?

Posted by: Tina at Jun 3, 2005 8:51:48 AM

I am left speechless, plus everyone else put it much better then I could.

This is a great post, I now have the most ridiculous mental image of a frozen embryo saying "Kunte Kinta".

Posted by: ccw at Jun 3, 2005 8:53:42 AM

Wow.
Everyone else has already made all my points, only more eloquently. Yes, you definitely need to start publishing some columns!! (Have you checked out Brain,Child Magazine? They might love some expanded versions of some of your posts.)
Every day I get more and more afraid of the fundies.

Posted by: Katy at Jun 3, 2005 8:55:28 AM

A post so long, I should get my own blog. Apologies in advance.

As an adoptive parent, I have gotten comments close to the "filthy junkie" thing. People continuously tell me what a good thing I'm doing by taking in these poor abandonded children. People tell me I'm a saint.

Its all very uncomfortable.

This is just my life, the path we have chosen. Without adoption, we would not be able to be parents, and yet my daughter - who is Black/ African American (We are white) - is truly the child meant for us. So many people have said -
"just think what would have happened if her birthmother had had an abortion"

But I am pro-choice. Very. I personally could not think of a situation where I would have an abortion, but I can think of plenty others who would (even should). If our daughter's birthmother had had an abortion, that would have been her choice to make.

These 'snowflake babies' do not exist. A clump of eight cells does not meet the definition of being "alive" (See Webster's Dictionary: having capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction. Eight cells in a petri dish doesn't mkae the grade)

If people want to call an embryo in a uterus "alive" - I understand that better, as it potentially (if it makes it to term) has that potential. But not in a test tube or petri dish.

Me, as an "adoption advocate" am aware of the very real situation of thousands upon thousands of children (and babies) who need a home now. Who are starving now, who are being abused or abandoned now.

Is there anything wrong with "adopting" these embryos? no. But the worst thing would be for these parents to go through life with the attitute that they did it because they did it out of political motivation. Imagine that kid's psychotherapist's bill in a few years.

Posted by: juliejulie at Jun 3, 2005 9:02:16 AM

I'm not jumping into the ethical right-to-life/right-to-choice debate. But I have a semantical question. If a couple undergoes IVF and there are excedentary embryos, they can donate the embryos (hence the name "embryo donation"). If another couple decides to try implantation of some of those embryos, what should I call this? I usually call it "embryo adoption", really, and everybody I know calls this process "embryo adoption", but I'm not in an English-speaking country.

What name do you suggest? "Embryo reception"? (As in donor/receiver)

Thanks a lot,

T.

BTW: I'm still single and I'm not so young anymore. I am really lucky with my friends, but not with my boyfriends. I have decided that, if I don't find a soul mate, I will adopt 2 or 3 (living, whatever their colour is) children. And if I do find a soul mate, I will adopt as well.

Posted by: T at Jun 3, 2005 9:47:57 AM

What a bunch of motherfucking hypocrites!

So...it would be wrong for these uber-Christians to, say, pony up the full cost of IVF themselves and take *ALL* the risks, create their own embryos, etc, but it's perfectly all right for them to benefit from somebody ELSE doing it?

What the fuck?

If they're really so against IVF for all the Church's reasons, how is it ever okay for them to benefit from it?

It's like saying "I don't believe in committing X crime (not that I think IVF is criminal, or should be, etc, etc), but I don't mind paying someone else to commit X crime so that I can reap the benefits."

Fuckers.

I suppose these are the same people who would lobby against stem cell research right up until A: a cure for prostate cancer is discovered through stem cell research and B: they personally get prostate cancer, at which time they will take the drugs/treatment and then thank God for saving their lives?

Posted by: akeeyu at Jun 3, 2005 9:52:35 AM

My vision of the future if this type of crap continues: Medical advances are thwarted as stem cell research is outlawed. People undergoing infertility treatment are FORCED by law to donate their unused embryos to right-wing Christians. A little bit further down the line, all infertility treatments are eventually outlawed and miscarrying mothers are arrested for "murder". Eventually only scary, devout Christians are allowed to reproduce and then everyone sits around scratching their heads when there are still gays and lesbians since there aren't anymore gay sperm donors. The father from "14 Children and Pregnant Again" gets elected President and it's all downhill from there...

Posted by: Jenny at Jun 3, 2005 9:54:01 AM

*collapses on the floor, murmuring "handmaid's tale...it's coming...handmaid's tale..."*

Posted by: Wendy at Jun 3, 2005 10:03:51 AM

Wow. That is insane. I wish I was not aware of how far off track this country is, then I could sit at work and do my work instead of writing scathing letters to my congresspersons. As it is, I'm about boiling over with words.

You have an excellant point on calling Ms. McClure a murderer. Maybe another womb would have "saved" that first embryo. I'd love to ask THAT question to those who think they are rescuing the "slaves." What a bunch of crap.

Posted by: Angela at Jun 3, 2005 10:21:45 AM

If they're really so against IVF for all the Church's reasons, how is it ever okay for them to benefit from it?

It's like saying "I don't believe in committing X crime (not that I think IVF is criminal, or should be, etc, etc), but I don't mind paying someone else to commit X crime so that I can reap the benefits."

The way it's being positioned, at least as far as this article goes, is that the recipients are doing it to free the embryonic slaves. It seems they see it not so much as reaping the benefits of having children as accruing blessings from on high for rescuing the unborn.

Which I find really, really unsettling.

As far as I can tell, it's not really about these enshackled embryos being freed; it's about being the one who frees them.

Posted by: Julie at Jun 3, 2005 10:23:00 AM

I have two children through open adoption and two through birth.

I agree the slave analogy and the fighting to "save" 8 celled embyos is bullshit.

However, if an infertile couple uses someone else's donated embryos I have no problem with that. I have no problem with them calling them "adopted" once they are pregnant. But I am annoyed by a different facet of this. I am annoyed by the people who become pregnant with a donated embryo and choose to tell no one and pass the embryo off as their own. The person I really care about them telling is their child. I think this whole thing speaks to how uncomfortable people are with all the concepts of adoption.

I think they should undergo a homestudy and analysis. The first question I would ask is why aren't you adopting traditionally ? They should have to work all of that out before they are allowed to even try for this 35% chance of pregnancy.

For the couples who donate their embryos, they have to realize if a baby results, they become birthparents. There are responsiblities with this. A child may want to meet them, or seek them out as adults, and are they prepared for that? This "saving" results in a person, it's not just an idea or a cause, but a person. A real person who will have feelings and issues that everyone will have to deal with. They will be an adoptee. I really wonder how many of these couples on both sides of the equation really contemplate that.

If they were my embryos I think I would donate them for research.

Posted by: Lisa V at Jun 3, 2005 10:33:05 AM

I don't usually post, but I think on this issue I must. I wear many hats in my life, but two of the most prominent ones are 1) infertile woman, and 2) Christian. I have to say that when the question of IVF was raised with my doctor and my husband, we had moral and ethical questions about it. I don't think there's a problem with questioning. It's what intellectuals do, we question. How does this affect me? What do I believe about this? Questioning is the process that we go through in order to reach decisions we are comfortable with. To not question would be foolhardy, like driving somewhere foreign without getting directions. Where will you end up? So I think it's important that we don't paint all Christians with moral qualms with the same brush that we might paint radical Christians with a political aim.

Secondly, before you condemn organizations like Snowflakes out of hand, you should know that NO ONE ever discussed the option of embryo adoption with my husband and I before we heard of Snowflakes. The reproductive biologist we saw literally had dollar signs in his eyes before we walked into his office, and we felt pushed and manipulated by fear and guilt down a path we were uncomfortable with from the onset. We don't have $20k + for IVF, and we weren't comfortable with the answers the infertility industry was giving us, and yet we were literally bullied into continuing to make appointments until I cried, "enough! I have to think about this!" And then we learned about Snowflakes and another service like them, and it answered many questions for us. First, if we decided to persue IVF, here was a way we could donate any excess embryos to a couple struggling like ourselves. And second, if we couldn't put forward the money for IVF, here was a way we could build our family for much less than the $20k+ than either IVF or adoption requires. And I could experience a pregnancy, knowing that I had eaten well, rested, and not engaged in risky behaviors. That my husband and I would be able to watch this child growing inside me, that maybe I could avoid a few of those "real mother vs birth mother" confrontations, or risk having a birth mother change her mind at the last moment.

I know there are many children out there to adopt, but I just want the same thing that expecting mothers want: a healthy child to hold. And this looks like an option for my husband and I to find this child. We're not politically motivated people. We're not trying to throw women back into the dark ages. We've read the Handmaid's Tale, too, and this is not that situation at all. We're just two people that always wanted a family of our own, weighing our options and our resources, and thankful that there may be people out there who would donate their unwanted embryos to us. We just want what you want. That's our only consideration.

So, please, a little more understanding and thoughtfulness would be appreciated. And I'm speaking as both an infertile woman, and a Christian here.

Posted by: Trish at Jun 3, 2005 10:35:57 AM

Yes, yes, I can just see it now.

THE SCENE: Little Sojourner Embryo is floating aroung in a petri dish, longing to be set free.

ENTER: Doug and Julie (the sound of "Amazing Grace" playing softly in the background.)

DOUG: (emphatically) We've come to rescue an enslaved child from the bowels of the netherworld.

JULIE: (primly) God asked us to stop by.

SNOWFLAKES EMPLOYEE: (leerily) You're not, um, queer, are you?

JULIE: (horrified) Of course not! We have perfectly normal HETEROSEXUAL missionary-syle sex every year on our anniversary. In the dark. With the lights out.

DOUG: Right! Sheesh.

JULIE: I did mention that we are Southern Baptist, didn't I?

SNOWFLAKES EMPLOYEE: Well, okay then. I mean, if God sent you and all...

DOUG: Well, of course he did. Spoke to him just last week during the First Sunday Potluck. I was getting ready to serve myself a mess of Irma Jackson's famous baked bean aspic, when I saw His face in a tiny speck of pork rind. (Excitedly)Then just as clear as a bell I heard Him say, "Doug, I want you and Julie to hightail it to that Snowflakes clinic ASAP! They're holding hundreds, nay, thousands of my children captive! It is your job as a Christian to SET MY PEOPLE FREE!"

JULIE: That's right! We got here as soon as we could. The thought of all those lonely embryos wallowing around in their cold little vials; why it was just too much to bear. I bet they don't even have as much as a receiving blanket to call their own.

SNOWFLAKES EMPLOYEE: That's right, Ma'am. These children are most definitely neglected. But thank God we have people like you who are willing to rescue them from their life of entrapment. Can I interest you in one of our newer models? Eight cells, good-natured, healthy eater, doesn't cry much and loves to watch Blue's Clues.

JULIE: Well, I don't know. Do you have one that knows how to crawl yet? We aren't getting any younger and it would be nice to not have to go through all that newborn angst again.

DOUG: Perhaps something in a thirty-two cell version? And one that comes from good, healthy stock?

SNOWFLAKES EMPLOYEE: Why, yes! I believe I have just what you're looking for! (Walks over to Sojourner's vial. Soujourner is humming the refrain of "Maybe" from the musical Annie.) How about THIS fine speciman! Never been sick a day in her life. Has a wonderful disposition, and sleeps for twelve hours straight every night.

DOUG AND JULIE: We'll take her!

SNOWFLAKES EMPLOYEE: Great! Why don't you folks step into the office and sign the paperwork while I thaw her out. It should only take a few minutes!

DOUG: Thank you, kind sir. It's a wonderful thing you're doing here.

SNOWFLAKES EMPLOYEE: No, no. It's a wonderful thing YOU'RE doing. Rescuing a child from a life of limbo and suspended animation. It warms my heart.

JULIE: We're only doing HIS will.

(Scene fades to black as Doug and Julie practically dislocate their shoulders patting themselves on the back, and the mournful sounds of a harmonica playing "Let My People Go" can be heard in the distance.)

Posted by: Razz at Jun 3, 2005 10:45:38 AM

Your best post EVER. De-lurking to say you rock in so many ways it's not funny. Right on.

I understand why Trish and other infertile women might be drawn to embryo donation/"snowflake" type things, especially if it comports with their beliefs--to my mind their situation is quite different from that described in the article. Recruiting FERTILE couples to "adopt" the embryos to me is yet another attempt to undermine choice in this country. But, I do hope, Trish, that you and all other women struggling, get the family you desire, and embryo adoption/donor eggs/surrogacy/adoption/IVF and sex are ALL valid ways to become parents.

Thanks for a fabulous blog Julie.

Posted by: wavybrains at Jun 3, 2005 10:49:45 AM

Wow, Razz, that was so very unlike my own ACTUAL conversation with Snowflakes, one that was difficult to make in the first place. I have been in infertility treatment for five years, and this was one more investigation that was approched with questions, fear, embarrasment, and grief. Fear that this would be another deadend for my husband and I. Embarrasment that I have to expose my private life to yet another stranger. Grief that I have to jump through these extraordinary and painful hoops in order to acheive the family that so many take for granted. I don't remember ever feeling "holier than thou", or particularly saintly or blessed that this is the painful path I must walk.

Do you think that it could be that the reporter picked the most obnoxious couple to highlight in the article? I do. I think they managed to find the most sanctimonious couple they could in order to paint all people who are interested in embryo adoption with the same brush. I would imagine that the vast majority of inquiriies that Snowflakes receives are from people like me: heartbroken, scared, and infertile.

Posted by: Trish at Jun 3, 2005 10:53:51 AM

I think thoughtfulness and understanding, you have in buckets, Miz Julie. I should be so fortunate as to be as well-endowed on that front as you are.

Nobody's saying that receiving donated embryos, in and of itself, is a bad thing.

The terrifying political agenda behind the aforementioned business and governmental activities, as well as the absolutely horrifying rhetoric used as justification, well, now, that's one hell of a bad thing.

Very unsettling precedents to set, here.

Posted by: Jo at Jun 3, 2005 11:01:40 AM

Trish,
You still have to deal with a birthmother, you just don't have to physically deal with her. There will be another woman and man out there who created this child.

And painting all birthmothers with this broad brush implying they don't take care of themselves or the children they are carrying is just wrong. Birthmothers come from a variety of situations and backrounds, relying on stereotypes does all of them disservice and disrespect.

Lastly there are a number of ways to adopt that cost much less than $20K. We adopted two healthy infants (at different times) for around $5K. It took roughly 18 months.

Posted by: LisaV at Jun 3, 2005 11:12:25 AM

Trish, I understand what you're saying and I hope you recognize that I took pains not to negatively characterize everyone who's interested in receiving donated embryos.

I don't think anyone who's involved with fertility treatments is a stranger to questioning its ethics, Christian or not. We all consider what might happen if we choose to transfer more than one or two embryos; we all think about the question of when life begins; and most of us are required to come up with a long-term plan for the disposition of any remaining embryos before retrieval even takes place. I don't deny that the process is fraught with sticky issues — I think it probably should be, since we're talking about nothing less momentous than creating life.

T., as for the nomenclature, I've been thinking about this this morning. I object to "embryo adoption" on the same grounds as adoption advocates do, but there's more to it. I think the term places the focus on the recipients rather than the donors, implying that the more important part of the equation — and perhaps the more heroic — is the receiving, rather than the giving. And I just can't agree that that's the case.

Posted by: Julie at Jun 3, 2005 11:12:52 AM

Lurker delurking to say AMEN! The hypocrisy of the "culture of life" thing never ceases to amaze me. There are plenty of "post-born" children suffering and dying from causes we know how to prevent. Can't we start with those, for God's sake (and I really mean for God's sake, I'm not just being profane).

Posted by: Julie at Jun 3, 2005 11:17:00 AM

LisaV, No, I didn't mean to paint all birthmothers as careless, just that I found comfort in the fact that I would -know- that the child I carried in my womb would not be exposed to certain risks. With traditional adoption there's no guarantee of that.

And I would be interested to hear more of your adoption experiences. My husband and I are still investigating our options, and traditional adoption is still on the table.

Posted by: Trish at Jun 3, 2005 11:20:05 AM

I really think I'm going to throw up!

Posted by: Debe at Jun 3, 2005 11:30:45 AM

Julie, I've been reading your blog for about a year, and I know you were not meaning to be insensitive. My only point in posting today was to state that there are people interested in embryo adoption that are not politically motivated at all. I think the true disservice was committed by the writer of that article, who failed to come up with a singe example of an infetile couple who had benefitted from their services with no other thought than wanting to have a family.

As for the nomenclature, as someone who is seriously considering embryo adoption, I don't have a problem with it. My husband and I ask ourselves many of the same questions regarding the process and what adoption means to us. To make things even more interesting, my husband is adopted, and therefore has very strong feelings about what adoption means to him personally, which I won't go into. We asked ourselves what it would be like to carry a genetically different child and what would that mean to us, our parents, our extended family? We ask ourselves questions like, "what would we tell the child, and when would that be apropriate?" "What do we tell our friends/family/co-workers/church family?" And from what little experience the questioning has given us, it feels a lot like adoption: not our genetic child, but one we would love and be responsible for.

And as I stated in another comment, no we don't feel heroic about this choice at all. We're confused, fearful, hopeful, and a myriad of other emotions, but not heroic, saintly, or altruisic. And we feel great respect and thankfulness for those couples who would consider our plight when they make decisions about "leftover" embryos. How thoughtful! How miraculous that someone would say, "we found what we wanted, and we want you to have that same chance!" There have been times throughout our struggles when we have felt abandoned by doctors, the insurance company, friends and family, and yet there are people out there that we haven't even met that might actually think, "we know what you are going through...let us help". If they do that for religious reasons or just from the kindness of their hearts, it makes no difference to me. It just may be the miracle I need.

Posted by: Trish at Jun 3, 2005 11:34:20 AM

I saw that Bush bit on the TV the other day. it just about made me sick. I hate that man and his cronies. He has done nothing but a great disservice to humanity in almost everything he has done while in office. What a self-serving turd. I thought liberals were supposed to be the ones with "bleeding hearts," turns out we are the ones who have brains capable of free thought. Sorry about the rant, but the whole situation makes me so pissed off. And I'm not even in the same boat as you and the rest of your readers (at least I dont think I am infertile, I haven't yet tried to get pregnant) I can't even conceive of how all this must make you feel(even though you did a great job of trying to convey it in your post today, I am sure that is just the tip of the iceberg).

P.S. I went back and removed the curse words, I didn't know if you had a policy on using the F-word in comments.

Posted by: rebekah at Jun 3, 2005 11:40:52 AM

The post and comments have all expressed very eloquently what is wrong with this NYT article and the Snowflakes folks, but another thing that always steams me about these issues is that the Christian right throws around their opinions about reproduction and gets them legislated into law in the name of the "values" of Christianity. This is insulting to the many Christians I know who are actually following the values of their religion by devoting themselves to helping the needy, the sick, and those facing injustice regardless of self-interest, or political agendas, or sexual orientation, or any other false distinction that has absolutely nothing to do with true charity. I wish those folks could get as much press as the Snowflakes nutjobs do for their allegedly "Christian" actions.

Posted by: J. at Jun 3, 2005 11:46:30 AM

And just to prove I'm no saint, my first visceral response to that article was "Damn Randy and Julie McClure! There's a waiting list for those embryos, and we don't need greedy fertile people snatching them all up! They've got three kids, they should back the hell away!" ;- )

Someone in an earlier comment posted something like they'd have more respect for the McClures if they'd found an infertile couple to help and funded their adoption, and I agree. I'm sure that they could have found an infertile couple in their church or through other means to help. Whoever made the "white man's burden" comment made a lot of sense to me.

Posted by: Trish at Jun 3, 2005 11:47:54 AM

Trish, I am sorry if I came off harshly. There is so much misinformation out there about adoption, that I tend to get really defensive of it. I obviously love it. I wrote about my eldest daughter's birth and adoption story on my blog if you are interested.

Posted by: Lisa V at Jun 3, 2005 11:59:56 AM

Those poor Snowflake 'adoptive parents'. They don't realize that their actions are directly against their own self interest. Look at the logical effects of their political campaign:

1) Show off 'former embryo' Snowflake children to president
2) President makes laws to prohibit using embryos for stem cell research
3) Laws are extended to 'protect' all embryos
4) Fertility clinics are prohibited from creating embryos
5) No more Snowflake children because no embryos are created for any infertile couples

If I have to go through IVF for my next child I will make sure that any embryos I don't use go to gay folks!

Posted by: Julie at Jun 3, 2005 12:06:45 PM

Trish, I was not meaning to imply that everyone who seeks to go this route is doing so for holier than thou reasons. I WAS, however, poking fun at RANDALL (where the heck did I get DOUG??) and Julie and their oh-so-altuistic attitudes.

And without jumping ass first into a debate on when life begins, I think the analogy made by the church elder regarding rescuing slaves and dealing with slave traders was ridiculous at best, and horrifying at worst. I personally believe that a frozen embryo has the POTENTIAL to become a child, and I don't agree with treating a clump of cells in the same way as a thinking, feeling, breathing, heart-beating child. But that's just my opinion. Many, many, many, many people will disagree. And that's fine. I guess in retrospect, it was a foolish enterprise to make fun of a topic so serious and frought with ethics and morals. Apparently my brain is on hiatus today.

I agree, the McClures were probably selected for the article to promote a biased viewpoint. I was reacting to those two people specifically, not all people seeking to implant donated embryos in general. I apologize.

Posted by: Razz at Jun 3, 2005 12:15:52 PM

altRuistic. I despise typos.

Posted by: Razz at Jun 3, 2005 12:18:49 PM

I looked into Snowflakes last year. Two of the requirements to "adopt" were to be Christian and married (I'm not and not). I looked again after the media blitz and noticed they changed it. Now, they say you can be any religion and even single, but that most of their donors are looking for married and Christian, so it could take a loooooong time.

Gee...any guesses as to why they changed the requirements? Can't have it looking like they're an exclusionary Christian organization while being touted by the President, now can we?

Also, my RE "transferred" my embryos to my uterus, he didn't "implant" them. Man, that pisses me off.

I'm on my last cycle with my own eggs. If this doesn't work, I will be doing a donor embryo cycle next. And, IF that is successful, I fully plan on telling the kid how s/he came to be and how grateful I am for the opportunity to finally be a mom. BTW...the donors are NOT the birthparents. I would be the birth mother since I would be giving birth. The donors are the genetic parents (or biological parents)...to me, it's big difference.

Posted by: Lisa at Jun 3, 2005 12:26:43 PM

Oh, I'm so glad you wrote about this. Well, well, well said.

If I decide to donate any embryos, I'm so TOTALLY requiring that they go to homosexuals. TOTALLY.

Posted by: Cecily at Jun 3, 2005 12:28:03 PM

Sorry, again! TRANSFER embryos. I'm new to this.

Posted by: Razz at Jun 3, 2005 12:51:56 PM

Razz...The "implant" comment wasn't directed at you. It was directed at the article.

Posted by: Lisa at Jun 3, 2005 1:02:11 PM

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