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02/28/2006
The corrections
I spend a lot of time pondering the big questions of parenthood, the intriguing philosophical problems on which Charlie's future emotional well-being surely hinges. Questions like, "Do I wash this crib sheet in cold (nosebleed) or hot (overflowing diaper so aggressively toxic that my DNA mutates even further just remembering the moment of discovery)?"
Once I've resolved those matters, I move on to consider less complicated issues. The one that's currently on my mind is this: How far does one dare to go in trying to civilize other people's children?
Two or three times a week, I take Charlie to the library to play. To overcome my innate discomfort among groups of women who've already forged alliances, I pretend I'm an anthropologist — a fidgety anthropologist who needs a haircut, smiles too much, and makes too-hearty overtures to other mothers when none are wanted, to be sure, but, look, I'm trying here, okay?
I love to watch Charlie negotiate with the other children. When a child is at a similar stage of development, it's gone very smoothly; they trample each other good-naturedly and roughly yank each other's toys away with nary a squawk of discontent. But when a kid is older, sometimes there's trouble.
A few days ago Charlie was leaning against the edge of the train table, happily softening up Thomas the Tank Engine for future digestion by marinating him in saliva. Charlie can't yet stand on his own, so he couldn't draw back from the table to let other children pass. I stood nearby, assuming my exquisite diplomacy would be needed sooner or later, and indeed it was when a girl of about four wanted to push her train past where Charlie stood.
(It is not absolutely crucial to the story that you know that when such conflicts arise, it is invariably with a girl, usually pale with violet shadows under her eyes, a mulish look on her thin face, and the utter absence of a soul visible in her every dull blink. But, Jesus, they grow 'em wan here, and I had to tell someone.)
The girl looked at Charlie happily laving his train, then turned her empty stare to me. "Make him move," she said.
Make. Him. Move.
I looked around for her mother, expecting her to trot purposefully over and remind her daughter in the appropriate tone of lighthearted firmness, while giving me an apologetic roll of her eyes, "Now, Gonorrhea, what word do we use when we ask for something?" Her mother, however, was deeply absorbed in conversation with another mother whose own pallid offspring was busy removing and tasting the pants of every wooden doll in the dollhouse.
So I assumed my own light tone, smiled as unthreateningly as I know how, and explained to the girl, "It's friendly to say please," while hauling Charlie a few feet back from the table.
I was kind. I was not harsh. I even did as she demanded while suggesting a nicer way to ask. And yet by saying it at all, I feel I broke some kind of unwritten code against correcting another person's child.
It's dicey. If I'd known the child and her mother, if I socialized with them frequently, I could have broached the subject in the context of wanting Charlie to understand that "please" and "thank you" are mandatory. If Charlie were older and understood what was happening, I could have offered alternate wording to the girl under the guise of asking for his cooperation. As it was, I was sort of stuck. Do I violate the tribal taboo or do I let a dead-eyed preschooler tell me what to do?
Because I am not so mature myself, "You're not the boss of me" won out.
And here's what's worse: I carefully said it in a soft enough voice that her mother wouldn't hear. I'm kind of a pussy that way.
My friend B., who is exquisitely polite herself, was complaining the other day about an ill-mannered homunculus of her acquaintance. "I know," she said, "that children don't have to be savages. My friend L. is like the Great fucking Santini of manners, and her five-year-old could work for the State Department. So there must be a way to do it."
"It's called a taser, B.," I informed her.
Paul's sister and her children were visiting us a few years ago. At lunch one day, the older teenage boy was taunting the younger, as was his habit. I dislike that kind of bickering, but, since I was aware that this was their way and that it was sanctioned by their mother, I ignored it as best I could. That is, until the older kid said to the younger, in a tone of perfect pubescent contempt, "R., you're so gay."
And then I heard myself say quietly, "I don't ever want to hear you say such a thing again."
The older kid turned bright red. After an uncomfortable silence, the subject was laboriously changed and I heard no more about it until that evening, when Paul's sister told me, "I was surprised that you said that to S."
"Well, I was surprised that he said that to R.," I answered.
"I think he was embarrassed," she said.
I did not say, "Good. He should have been." But I thought it, deep down inside where my nastier impulses reside.
I couldn't let his remark go unchallenged. I couldn't let him think it was okay. I knew his mother wouldn't correct him, so before I thought through it, I did. If I'd seriously wanted to help him understand why he was wrong, I'd have gone about it differently. The urge to improve a young mind wasn't what spurred me. My refusal to listen to that kind of ugliness in my own home was.
Was it wrong for me to speak to him as I did? Sometimes I think it was, because I can't honestly justify humiliating a kid (and, believe me, I can generally rationalize just about anything). At other times I've thought, Well, at least I got his attention. Or I've told myself that someone needed to say something, anything, and the mode mattered less than the meaning. Or I've righteously assured myself that if he's going to be an ass, he needs to be aware that sensitive, thinking, decent, God-fearing, red-blooded Americans — sorry, got a little carried away there — are going to take issue, and he would do well to consider the consequences before he opens his arrogant teenaged trap.
But then I try to decide whether it was wrong for me to say something to begin with, manner notwithstanding. Was I correcting someone else's child in his mother's presence, or was I conversing with a statutory adult? And I conclude that it doesn't matter; "wrong" or not, no matter who said it, I just couldn't let it pass.
And then, when I've exhausted myself by revisiting and overthinking something that happened three years ago, I exact my revenge by thinking uncharitable thoughts about his deplorable personal hygiene.
I'm not so mature, remember?
Maybe I place too much importance on manners. I've been accused of that before, of holding myself aloof that way, of keeping people at a distance with too many pleases and thank-yous. (Of course, those accusations came mainly from my caveman of a college boyfriend, who a) insisted on sharing at Chinese restaurants, and then, once the rest of the party had asked for innocuous, accessible dishes, would invariably order moo goo gai pig's anus; and b) told my mother he didn't think I was funny, so make of that what you will. God knows I do, every chance I get.)
It is convenient to have a southern upbringing to blame. Raised on "no, ma'am" and "yes, sir," I might not always be considerate in a meaningful, substantial way, but I can always be counted on to use the proper stationery for a note of condolence. And isn't that what's really important, after all?
I have no idea how I'll feel when inevitably someone takes it upon herself to correct Charlie's manners. I'd like to believe I'll take it in stride, secure in the way we're raising him, but then I'd also like to believe he'll have only minor lapses — "Do you need a time out?" "No." "No what?" "No, thank you."
Yeah.
Clearly I'm the one who needs to be tasered.
Please.
Comments (182)
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Can I add to the 'no thank you' strain!??!
My sister refusees to teach her children the smallest iota of manners and it makes me INSANE!!!
The ONLY attempt at teaching them anything, is to say "NO THANK YOU" whenever they are being horrible monsters. To them, not them saying it to anyone.
One will be hanging from her leg biting her to a bruise that has lasted for weeks, and she will calmly look at him and say "no thank you".
How about "Unlatch your teeth from my body, you little monster"
I could go on and on, but this is your blog, and that would be rude.
Well Julie, I'm with you here. I myself ventured out today w/ my two kids. We were at the museum, and unfortunately it was field trip day for EVERY elementary school in central Indiana. SUCK. 10 kids to one chaperone, not good. My 3 yr old and 10 mth old trying to play in the midst of the chaos, SO not good. So I finally stepped in, and reminded some of the children to find their manners. So I guess I'm ok with correcting other people's kids, b/c usually the mother and/or father is too engrossed in their own convo to care! People use playgrounds, museums, zoos, etc for babysitters, not for family enjoyment. And thus we have to babysit their kids while trying to keep ours out of harm's way. Hmmm I'm rambling. Keep at it Julie, I know I will! And I'm 22 yrs old, imagine the looks I get when I do it! :)
None of the examples you cited strike me as egregious violations of social decency. When it comes to teenagers in particular, I'm of the 'less is more' school and I'd bet a lot that your nephew knew precisely which line he'd crossed.
I'm something of a stickler for manners, except when I'm not (exhaustion has driven me to that soul-less eye glaze, I confess), and my kids are pretty darn consistent with the pleases and the thank-yous, but when they were relatively gently reminded to be a bit quieter at the library (our local library being well-known for expecting a high degree of silence on the part of its child patrons), I still felt angry and defensive. The kids didn't even notice, but it's the very rare individual who offers guidance to a child without making certain assumptions about her parents. And it's the rare parent who doesn't feel defensive about those assumptions.
Or so I've found about myself.
I've been accused of being overly concerned with manners as well. To which I invite people to go fuck themselves. Then I send a thank you note.
Here's my theory...manners are what make human interactions sans firearms possible. They are important. And, as a mother, I am well aware that the word is a kinder place to well mannered children.
I think what you did with the nephew was fine. The only thing I might have changed was doing it in private, either by asking him to help you in the kitchen or right after lunch. My son is a teenager now and his friends do quite well with private asides when it comes to changing behavior.
As for dead-eye, I would have not moved my kid until she said please. As in, "You'd like him to move? Can you ask him nicely?" To which she'll probably click those eyes back and mutter a "Move, please."
Will it teach her anything? Probably not. But everytime you do that, you are teaching Charlie what Mama will, and will not, accept.
I love my best friend, but I can't stand her ill-mannered monster children. It's so bad that I find myself avoiding my friend, which is so sad.
I thought all your "corrections" were very polite. I think you did great!
Ive been lurking around here for a few months now, and I just wanted to tell you, as a non-mother just out of college, who is strangely drawn to these sorts of blogs, how enjoyable your entries are.
I have a feeling that (hopefully) somewhere in the future, Im going to be thinking these same thoughts, as so many generation have already.
Thanks for the few minutes of joy your entries bring every day.
I have no issue with correcting someone else's child when they are standing on my back in the middle of the playground. Although I think the mother was less than pleased because afterall, who was I to tell her child that it wasn't nice to jump on a stranger thank you very much.
I see no issue with your actions. Someone was being rude in your home. You have every right to take issue. As for the child (btw, at your description the movie Children of the Corn immediately came to mind) who told you to 'move him now', if it were my child I'd want him corrected.
Manners are a must, but I am worse than you, Julie. I feel the need to parent children whose biological parents aren't doing it, especially when safety is involved. Case in point: My neighbor and I sat on my steps one day watching our children play in the yard. K, age 7, was darting back and forth between the parked cars on the street while her mother said nothing. I saw a van drive by just as K was ready to sprint into the road, and I instinctively yelled, "K! GET OUT OF THE ROAD!" She stopped just short of the van, which swerved to miss her, and began to sob. Her mother looked at me and said, "You yelled a little loudly at her. Now her feelings are hurt." I did not point out that because of my yelling she still had feelings and not internal bleeding. Oh, well, I am sure there will be a next time to do that.
In your own home you have a right to enforce your "house rules" to your nephew I might have said "In our house we don't use that word" or something of that sort.
With respect to Paul's sister's son, I think you definitely did the right thing. When hurtful, bigoted comments about being "gay" or a "fag" are sanctioned by a parent, then kids may NEVER learn what is and what is not appropriate to say in polite company (nevermind what's appropriate to believe, but it's much harder to influence that).
In my line of work, I come across some REALLY antiquated views of women and I always want to take these pasty little attorneys by their expensive lapels and ask them WHERE they get the balls to make statements which imply that if a woman is having pre-marital sex, she is nothing but a tramp-whore and doesn't deserve alimony or child support.
As for other people's children, I suppose it all depends on your beliefs. I spent my teen-hood and much of my college-hood babysitting. Whenever it was a group endeavor, like going to the park or the playground, I was always pretty stern and staunch in my support of manners. I had a couple mothers get annoyed when I corrected their offspring, but I figure if they're not getting it at home, they should at least be exposed to it elsewhere. In addition, I always figured that if the kids I babysat were MY kid, I wouldn't want to send them inconsistent messages by insisting good manners from them, but not from others.
I have no problem yelling at my bf's kids, if the situation warrants it. But they're like my nephews. I am finding myself getting a little overprotective of jamie when he's around them, so I think I need to back off a bit.
Other people's kids, it depends on the situation I guess. A firm tone combined with a steely gaze, followed up with a smile, that seems to do the trick.
I'm on the fence about it. I do think you have the right and responsibility to correct language and manners in your own home. No question there. However, I never, never correct anyone else's children in any other situation, unless they are hurting my child or are in danger of being hurt themselves....I'm not sure who is right or wrong, but I've had to really bite my tongue hard some days. I know the moms I hang with are pretty sensitive to this -- yesterday my angel, Jackson, threw sand at another kid. I didn't see it, and my friend instinctively said, "Jackson, no throwing sand!". Of course, I was totally fine with it, but she actually apologized a few minutes later. I told her it was more than fine with me!! But I know she felt more than a little icky about doing it.
I probably would have done all the same things. I don't know where a four year old gets the idea she can tell an adult what to do. I know, I know, her synapses probably aren't wired all correctly yet or some other developmental thing, but it would have cheesed me off too.
I think our culture lacks politeness. Wow, I can't believe I said that; I sound so stodgy. But really, what you related in your post sounded perfectly polite to my Southern ears. I think consideration and respect go a long way, and that's something I hope to teach my son. I was at the children's museum on Sunday and had to bite my tongue, hard, a couple of times at the rude behavior of older children toward my toddler--pushing past him (and that girl was at least 7 years old for christ's sake), grabbing toys out of his hand--in their mothers' presence! I took the passive-agressive route and said to my crying son, "I know she (they were girls in our case too!) was rude and hurt your feelings, but look sweetie, here's another ball/toy cow/fake grocery item to play with." He probably didn't know what I was saying, but their moms surely did. I tried not to feel anger toward the girls because they obviously and very unfortunately didn't know any better; of course, that didn't stop me from giving one of them a very cold stare. I'm so mature.
Julie-good for you saying something. I know there are moments when I feel uncomfortable correcting the behavior of other people's children, but I think there are circumstances that allow it.
One-if it is in my house. I don't want the little people to get hurt, and I want them to be respectful of other people. Two-when I think the parents are not paying attention. I am more likely to correct the manners and behavior of my friends' children because I pay closer attention to them.
One of my girlfriends has told me repeatedly that she expects her three daughters to be respectful of what adults say. She has encouraged me to say something when I notice bad manners or behavior in her children. As a result, they are usually well behaved.
Passive agressive to the core am I. I have many a time said " B I am sorry that boy/girl took the toy you were playing with. Lets move over here and look at this/that." And believe me I have said this loud enough for the parent to hear me. Heck I said it loud enough for the parent to hear me if they were in another state.
It takes a village to raise a child and you're a member of the village.
I'm not there to hear my 2 1/2 year old's every utterance. If (when) he's rude I would hope that someone would gently remind him that good manners are important. Key word being gently. I think you did just that.
I think part of it is how you will allow people to treat you. At this point, you are Charlie's advocate as well so you are speaking for him to witness as well as for his benefit. I think that "excuses" any part of you that may feel you acted rudely.
That said, I probably would expect a parent to not be happy about you correcting their children. I think that is only natural. Embarrassment, defense, I'm not sure why but I can see that it would bother me. I really do make an effort to teach my children to be polite and for the most part, they really are. But both of my children have certain parts of their personality that lead them toward sort of rude bahavior. My 2 year old son is extremely shy and when someone addresses him, he usually buries his face in my leg. My 4 year old daughter is a talker (GOD, the TALKING!) and will often interrupt. These are both behaviors I am trying to turn around but if I heard some other adult address them, I would probably prickle a little at least.
Lastly, from personal experience, I think when some kid is being rude to your kid and you address it without getting all corporal, you are ahead. We had a kid at the Picture People nudge my son off of everything he tried to play with. I gave my son some time to try to resolve it on his own (which he did by trying to get away from the kid) then I stepped in and told him he would have to wait his turn. I was nice. He got nervous and left us alone. Then I put my claws away and we had a nice afternoon.
I would much rather have a kind and polite child than "manners" For example, my son would get all kinds of hell for the gay comment. However, we call all sorts of adults by their first names. If we are friendly then its Bob and Jane, if it is coworkers etc that we aren't close with then its Mr & Mrs Doe. My child in general is polite and kind (although one hell of a tattletale). But I get all kinds of crap about him not saying "Yes, Ma'am" and "No Sir" Of course one of my coworkers while lecturing on how that was the height of politeness and respect went on to regal us all with a story not 5 minutes later in which her husband (and yes ma'am) kind of person punched a late teen who stole his bike.
I responded I would rather have me child never say yes ma'am or no sir and not punch people. Although we are big on please and thank you....
My husband corrected another child the other day. He was playing on a playground with my son (3 1/2) who was climbing a ladder to a slide. The ladder was pretty tall - about 5 ft off the ground. All of a sudden a little heathen of about 6 or 7 tries to climb OVER my child. Well, my husband actually picked up the other child, put him on the ground and told him to "Wait his turn". I was inside (thankfully) and did not witness this. While I would certainly have said something to the kid, I think it's a bit dangerous to actually physically move someone else's child. Of course, the parents couldn't be bothered to actually watch their own kid, so I guess *someone* had to do it.
People suck. And they breed little kids who suck.
Yes, ma'am - you did exactly the right thing in all situations. Kudos to you.
As a mom of 3, I would love it if a stranger had reminded my kids to say "please" if they had not done so on their own. I see nothing wrong in reminding anyone's children of basic common courtesy & manners (in a non-preachy way!).
As for the "gay" comment your nephew made...my teenage boys do that to each other all the time. My husband & I reacted like you did the first several times we heard them taunt each other like that (usually with respect to a clothing choice or hairstyle one of them has adopted), but then they wised up and wondered why it was wrong of them to say the other looked gay when we've always told them that there's nothing wrong with being gay. After trying to explain that the way they were using "gay" was negative, they insisted that it wasn't and that we were the ones assuming a negative connotation with "gay". Would never admit it to them, but they kind of have a point...
Having just read about a twelve year old in Detroit that stuck his gum to a $1.5 million dollar painting in a museom on a field trip, I think that any way a kid can be taught manners is good, because it's pretty frickin' obvious that many parents aren't doing it anymore.
We're so worried about damaging little Timmy's id or little Janie's psyche that we forget that little Timmy and little Janie will be interacting with other people and need to learn how to do so with some semblance of manners. Man, I cannot tell you how many times I wanted to smack my sister's kids (and then her) when she would count to three, they'd ignore her and continue on with whatever normal bratty behavior they were displaying, and then she would do nothing about it. Children that have no consequences for their actions have no manners.
When my nieces and nephews are around me, they know better than to be little animals. And, guess what? They all LOVE hanging around with me. My seventeen year old nephew comes over just to hang out with me -- and calls me on the phone to chat. He's not a freak or a weirdo in any other way, either.
My Mom always told me that while I may not have cared for the fact that I was being disciplined, someday I would appreciate the fact that she cared enough to discipline me.
I do.
Manners show people that you think well of them. If people are impolite to me, it tells me that they don't respect me. If people don't respect me, I don't particularly want them around me. I think I am pretty reasonable, but it has been hinted that perhaps my expectations of other people are too high. To which I say, tough shit.
We have this issue all the time with others. I don't think it's wrong for a child to say, "Make him move." But it's wrong for the parent not to teach her that it's wrong. All just wrong. And my pet peeve, which is why I delurked to tell you this.
I am with you on the manners, my theory being that manners are about something much deeper than please and thank you: they're about putting the other person before yourself. They are the first steps a child takes toward seeing the world from other people's perspectives, and the first practice they get at putting their own needs second. Manners are the outward actions which reflect and reinforce he qualities I as a mother want to foster in my children, namely, generosity and consideration and unselfishness. Concern for other people, in a nutshell. So yeah, please and thank you and yes sir are good!
I think you did good in both situations.
La La La, let's all sing the "Different Parenting Styles" song. It's code for, "I really like the parents but JESUS their kids are brats." You're going to run into this more and more as Charlie gets older.
But isn't this an interesting artifact of modern life? I grew up in a homogenous neighborhood -- everyone had a similar background, income level, mostly went to the same church, etc. Because of the homogeneity, the standards for kids' behavior were also very consistent. If someone's mom saw you misbehave, you KNEW your mom's phone was ringing 10 seconds later, dammit.
Now I live in a gloriously diverse neighborhood that looks like a U.N. meeting, even within households. And when I see something I think is inappropriate, I don't even think about calling the parents because I can't be sure that they agree with my ideas about appropriate behavior.
Side note: hooray to you for calling your nephew down on the "so gay" comment. Bigotry thrives on people being too timid to object. Yay, you.
I am the manner police in our house. Every "I want" gets responded with "That's nice" and me ignoring the request. Every request I make of my children has a please and thank you attached. The goal in my home is to make it clear that everybody is a person and you need to respect people and ask them and thank them.
And the please and thank yous go deeper than words. The kids do pick up on the fact that others matter. We talk about it. We talk about how a family is a hand and each person is a finger. And the family can't work together if one finger isn't helping.
I hate seeing manners being left off to the side.I see it often. If I see a child who is saying something that is not appropriate, I will say something. And if the parent isn't happy, After I put my heart out of my throat and back where it belongs, I deal with that...(I hate confrontations)
My daughter is 2 and is overly polite... We have to watch her... She says excuse me, thank you, please, and everything right on cue... She also says... Oh, I am so so sorry, if she is taking a while on the stairs and a polite adult is waiting for her to reach the bottom before passing her by. She won't move if she sees and adult coming, as she doesn't want to get in their way... (We are working on her NOT apologising for being 2. She is allowed to take her time on the stairs... Yeah... She is a strange duck...)
But.. Here is the issue... I got my 2 month old into her car seat, and my 2 year old was struggling with the concept of having to crawl into her car seat for the 4th time that day (Errands for daddy). She was fighting me, and DECIDED to kick her 2 month old sister in the face. I told her sternly to stop and that it was not permitted for her to kick her 2 month old sister. She laughed at me. Yeah, the little sucker laughed at me. I had to get up close to her face, and give my most serious voice, and basically yell at her 2 inches from her face, telling her that was NOT ALLOWED. She started to cry, I mean, SOB. I didn't stop to hug her and tell her she would be okay. She will be. As I closed the door on her, and went to get the stroller into the trunk, a woman saw me, saying... "Oh... She seems sad"... I replied. "Yes, yes she is sad. She has good reason to be sad. She kicked her 2 month old sister in the face, and laughed about it. Mommy told her it wasn't funny, and she is now crying." The woman looked at me and smiled. She said, "Yep, that child needs to be sad. Have a good day!"
I just feel guilty about disciplining my OWN child in public. But, I had to. I can't let her get away with kicking her sister, just because we are in public. I felt I had to justify my discipline to a total stranger today. I mean, my daughter is normally very very polite, but goodness, when discipline needs to happen, it needs to happen. How do you think I have a polite child? (she isn't scared of me or hardened from too much yelling, so a quick stern voice will send her into guilty sobs). ((Look, now I am even tyring to justify my discipline technique to all of you on the web...)).
Argh....
I am with Cat... it takes a village...
If you are under my roof/in my care, you play by my rules. If you don't, you will not be coming back.
I get flack for this all of the time... and I don't care. I will not be spoken to or treated like that.
There are many children who I nannied who were much better behaved in my presence than with their own parents.
I have also lost jobs as a nanny because a parent didn't like how I corrected their child. Their loss, not mine... I have also had parents say they like me because I am "hard" on their children and demand a lot from them. They know they are not as good a disciplinarian as I am and they appriciate the lessons their children learn.
Julie, you handled it perfectly... I don't think I would have done as well...
I don't think you were out of line either time. The sister in law situation was certainly the stickiest of the bunch. I'm surprised she acknowledged what you said. I personally would've been so embarrassed that someone else needed to teach my child manners that I never would've addressed the issue. Several times at playgrounds or at McDonald's I've been forced to say something to children who were rude & their parents were nowhere to be found. Usually I say something like 'That wasn't very nice at all, was it?' in a nice, soft voice.
If the parent isn't near enough to hear your comment, OR be horrified by their child's behavior, you're totally in the right in saying something. After all, we ARE there to protect the safety of our kids..and not just from physical harm. I don't want my kid to learn bad manners anywhere else..there's enough bad crap he could pick up at home!! :)
My goal for the early childhood years is to have children that other people don't mind being around. Because we all know some children that we avoid at any cost.
My stepkids use do that "you're so gay" thing all the time, and I don't say anything ... because they don't do it to be mean. They have gay friends/classmates that they hang out with regularly, sometimes daily, and the gay friends do it, too. I think it's the intention that counts.
If your nephew said it to be mean or to be derogatory, you did absolutely the right thing.
Didn't read all the comments but, in my opinion,
A. You are completely in charge of what kind of manners/behavior is appropriate in your own house. Now that you have Charlie it will be easier, as "we don't speak to each other that way in this house" or use that tone or say that word in a derogatory way or whatever. Their bickering creates an unpleasant tone in the house, and you don't have to allow it.
B. I have a four year old and a one year old and you can bet that the four year old knows how to say "excuse me please" when he wants his brother (or someone else) to move. He also says it when he wants to interrupt a conversation, although we are still working on that as he says it over and over and louder and louder until you stop talking and ask what he wants. Not the overall effect we are going for.
C. I find that if I am dealing with how someone else's child is speaking to myself or my children, I have every right to ask that they do it respectfully. If the child said "Make him move" I guess I would have said, "Charlie, could you excuse her, please." and moved him out of the way. Only, I probably would have said it loud enough to hope the mom overheard me.
One can never I place too much importance on manners.
Gosh you are so funny (Gonorrhea), I would have done the exact same thing.
Sometimes children will just be children and I've never minded anyone correcting my 4 year old son when he's been rude (I'm usually on the way to doing it myself, but if another parent is closer and it happens...).
I usually find myself apologizing for his behavior (or thanking them for stepping in) and had the correcting parent say, "No big deal..." because it is and it isn't (Its a big enough deal to need to be corrected, but kids will be kids).
I work with a man who is the most mannered person I know and its just great. D is in his early 40s and says "Please" and "Thank You" and holds doors and asks if he can help carry, etc., etc. I've never, ever felt that it was sexist, just brilliantly polite. I even asked him (hoping my son would someday be a man as well mannered as D is) if his parents beat those manners into him. His answer, "You bet."
I love the idea of ignoring a request until a "Please" is added onto the front of it, too. I tend to have to repeat, "How do you ASK?" a few hundred times a day right now and that might just stop that.
Kel
A fine job with both situations, I think.
One thing I'll note, however, is that with your nephew, the intent of your correction may not have been clear. That is, did your nephew understand that you were disapproving of gay being used as an insult and as an attribute having nothing to do with either sexual orientation or happiness (if I am understanding the situation correctly)? Or might he have thought that speaking of sexual orientations alone was verboten?
Oh-ho-ho... you were very polite. I probably would not have been so...
Maybe a little "can you say please, honey?" loud enough for the absent mother to hear me... go ahead, try and tell me that's wrong.
I'd definitely want someone reminding my child to say please. Nothing wrong with that. My son gets nothing without the magic words. But the key in my household is having the ADULTS remember to use them. Yikes!
I have to say that it would not have ever occured to me to wonder if I was wrong in correcting a child's impolite behavior; relative or stranger. Isn't that what adults are for?
let me join the chorus here.....I too am a stickler about polite words, often with other children. I volunteer at church, school and girl scouts, if parents are willing to leave their kids in my care they damn well better expect that I will make them follow the same rules we have in our house.
I will also tell you that I do not want a child to parrot the word "please" back at me nor do I call it "the magic word" (it won't ALWAYS get you what you want.) What I demand is that they try again, using polite words in the form of a sentence. And my girls often come home form playdates with parents commenting on how polite they are. to which I reply, "damn straight! now get me another beer....please...."
I correct the manners of complete strangers. And I don't even have a kid. You didn't do anything wrong.
A couple of times I've spoken quite harshly to kids who were not mine (and in fact I did not know them) : The time I almost hit a kid on his bike with my car when he crossed the road RIGHT in front of me. I offered to go tell his mother that he had almost gotten himself killed. (I shook for 2 days)
Another time: We had a storm culvert right down the road and it had been raining and it was flowing. About 5 foot deep and running fast. There was a kid on the inside of the rail holding on, letting go and then grabbing on again real fast. I could just see him missing the wet slippery rail and falling into what was essentially a raging river. He stopped for a minute and I YELLED at him to stop that before he killed himself. He did. With a 'Yes, Ma'am', even.
Would I have wanted someone to say something to my kid in either of these circumstances?
Hell to the YES. Save my kid's life, get a donut, that's my motto.
As far as the nephew thing goes, in my family, everyone corrects everyone else's kids. It's just a matter of which adult says something first. We figure they're all 'ours' and we're all responsible for making sure that they grow up to be good citizens and kind people.
If it were my kid, I would want you to say something. You were kind and gentle and right. If I heard you say that to either of my boys, I'd agree with you, and ask that they say please. Any decent parent would do the same, surely.
I am so ashamed to admit this, but:
I once slapped someone else's son.
And I have thought about it ever since. He and his friends were doing something dangerous- throwing big rocks down an embankment where people were standing below, in the dark- he was the first one I grabbed. I asked how old he was, he said 13, and I slapped him across the face, and said "Now you go tell your mother," knowing full well he would never.
I thought he was old enough to know better, but it wasn't my call. And I was mad, which isn't a reason. And also, I was young- 19- and someone should have slapped ME.
You can say anything you want, I think, without being abusive. You don't have to do what a little one tells you to do and you don't have to put up with a little one doing something that effects you (kicking your seat, touching your kid, throwing rocks).
But there is definitely a line. One of those rocks should have hit me- I deserve to be stoned.
I don't do many play dates. My daughter is 18 months old and I don't know if we'll get into that more when she's older or not. I guess it depends on whether I continue to get in trouble with the other moms when I go... The first one that I went on was with a couple of friends who have babies about the same age as mine and older kids as well. After about an hour of listening to one of the moms shouting across the playground to her child, I actually went over to her 3 1/2 year old and calmly told him, "Your mother asked you not to do that. I'm sure that she'd have come over here herself but she has her hands full right now nursing your sister. The reason that you shouldn't do that is that you're going to fall and get hurt. That would make everyone very sad. Can you please come play closer to us on something more suited to your age and size?"
You'd have thought that I had slapped not only mother and hellion but the nursing baby as well... I've not done a playdate with them since.
Well, I am pretty durn impressed at your restraint in all described situations.
Once this past summer while at the farmer's market with a friend her two children, I heard myself "discipling" them. (If you can't share nicely, give me the pretzels and I'll dole them out.) I was shocked with myself and immediately apologized to my friend. Who was not at all worried about it. Thankfully.
I think it's because I was once a preschool teacher and I still carry that with me.
It's touchy situation. But I am very impressed by the way you handled each of these. Very polite. Someone must have taught you that.
UP with Manners!
Don't beat yourself up. I was raised the same way "What did you say?" "Yes, ma'am." And I'm glad. So will Charlie be.
There's nothing wrong with having manners - it's just another form of respect for your fellow human beings. If only everyone felt this way ...
I have no opinion, except that you are hilarious.
You're nicer than I am...I would have added a smack on the back of his head to the I don't want to hear you say that again. But I have bad manners and an intolerance for "you're so gays".
My sweet baby, when she rips toys from the unrelenting grubby hands of other children, she always says thank you. Now that's manners.