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01/15/2007
For $5,000, I'd expect one without diarrhea
Two things happened today:
- I was informed that in the course of our eagerly anticipated renovation, tomorrow we will lose the use of our washer and dryer, along with all upstairs handwashing facilities, for an indeterminate period; and
- Charlie went through six diarrhea-soaked diapers in an hour this evening.
I can't think of a single goddamn way this could possibly end well.
It has been 46 days since I started gonadotropins in December, with no period in sight. Despite everything the Internet tries to tell me, I am not pregnant. Despite everything else the Internet tries to tell me, I am finding it unnerving. I do not like this unsolicited reproductive advice. I am seriously considering chucking my computer out into the snow, where it can keep the bathroom cabinet company, and replacing it with a nice soothing Magic 8-Ball.
Federal officials are looking into a service that offers ready-made human embryos for $5,000 a pair. Jennalee Ryan, who runs the Abraham Center of Life, the business under investigation,
...said she allows customers to choose embryos after reviewing the donors' characteristics, including their ethnic and educational background and, in some cases, their photos.
"Who wants an ugly, stupid kid?" she said.
That's the story as reported somewhat sensationally by the Associated Press. More rigorous examinations appeared in The Washington Post and Slate.
The question is worth asking — not Ryan's, because, duh, who doesn't want an ugly, stupid kid? No, tell me what you think of this question: What's wrong with buying ready-made embryos?
Thanks to Isa for the link.
Posted by Julie at 09:56 PM in I've learned a lot...but I'm not sure it's worth it. | Permalink
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Comments (76)
You are surely the queen of the embedded link. Hope Charlie's diarrhea clears up soon - for his sake and yours!
Posted by: Melissa at Jan 15, 2007 10:03:31 PM
Nothing is wrong with the ready made embryo thing. We aren't talking about a large number of people adopting them. There would need to be some sort of checks in place (like donor id numbers) so that these babies don't end up marrying their brother or half-sister or cousin or whatever.
I'ld assume that the donor parents would be screened for genetic problems in ways that the adopted embryos aren't.
If I put on my tin foil hat, it could be creepy like...
Madonna and Sean Penn's embryo for sale to benefit Save The Whales.
OR
Teacher has sex with student only to discover he is her biological son.
Posted by: Lisa at Jan 15, 2007 10:05:55 PM
I read this story the other day. I also read about being able to transplant wombs is in the near future, since the first failed attempt taught them that it is doable....
Posted by: Jmacksgirl at Jan 15, 2007 10:42:56 PM
Ugh, I feel your pain on the renovations. We did it once too, it took two long years with intermittent bath and kitchen facilities. All I can say is, I hope it's over soon.
As for the embryos, I say if the donors are willing, and all created embryos will be adopted out, then why the hell not. This Abraham Center is near where I live, so I've been hearing about it for some time. I don't see how what she is doing is all that much different from me going out and using donor eggs and donor sperm and doing it on my own, except that potentially there could be a whole lot of embryos that end up on ice indefinitely in that scenario, plus it would cost me more.
A couple things that are unnerving to me about this, though: First, who are these women who are willing to donate their eggs so that Abraham Center can make money? I figured the costs out once, and she could be making tens of thousands of dollars per cycle. Seems to me like egg donors who are just being altruistic might decide their eggs could go to better causes.
Second, from what I've read, the Abraham Center is doing NO screening whatsoever of the parents who buy the embryos, which to me is kind of a slippery slope. I mean, who's to say that some shady people might not get into the business of producing black market babies for profit? (On the other hand, who's place is it to say that any particular person is unworthy to be a parent?)
It's a shame that Jennalee Ryan had to go and sully the whole situation with that stupid quote, which only distracts from the real issue.
Posted by: kristlynne at Jan 15, 2007 10:53:10 PM
When it can be transplanted into my cat, so that I can enjoy the miracle of birth by peering under my house until my new baby is delivered by the nape of his or her neck, licked clean by Mittens, then bring it, sister. And for someone who just plopped down 33K not including meds, you got a bargain, chica!
Posted by: jbeeky at Jan 15, 2007 11:01:44 PM
I think I am most disturbed that they are sold in pairs. I wonder if they mean that like a pair of earrings or a pair of underwear.
and I'm laughing my ass off at jbeeky's comment - I think 'ready' made is when you can pop one from the freezer to the microwave. Each box can have peel-off-stick-on stretch marks that you can add for authenticity if you want.
Posted by: anne nahm at Jan 15, 2007 11:16:25 PM
For Christmas, I want a bracelet, new shoes, and a pair of embryos, please. Make sure they're cute though. I'll work on the smarts later. And if jbeeky's cat can do the honors, I say it's worth it.
Posted by: sisyphus at Jan 16, 2007 12:09:09 AM
Anne: "Please tear here" and all that... and the stupid pre-cut perferation is nowhere near where you're supposed to tear - hey! instant World's Worst Episiotomy, just like I got, but without the nasty scarring!
Julie, may your renovations go as smoothly as possible. I wish I lived close by so you could use my washer & dryer as you needed. Even though I don't know you and all. But your friends inside the computer want to help!
Posted by: laura at Jan 16, 2007 12:16:19 AM
Hope that washer and dryer is back in commission SOON!
Posted by: Tara at Jan 16, 2007 12:18:47 AM
Wait...wait...what about CELEBRITY EMBRYOS??? Christie's could auction off the cryobanked embryos of celebrity couples who didn't quite make it...or Brangelina could cycle to end hunger and sell each pair of superfrosties for a cool mil--SOMEone, somewhere, would buy them out. Or bloggers could FedEx them to each other like leftover fertility meds--"three eight-cell PGD'd 'normal' embryos, to good home; we already had our one and don't want to flush the suckers." Heh.
Posted by: Liza at Jan 16, 2007 12:37:01 AM
Well, since embryos are legally classified as property, I'm mostly okay with it, although until they get a large donor base, it seems kind of like shopping for designer clothes that are only available in two sizes: 3 and 5. Pretty, but not a good fit for everyone.
Posted by: akeeyu at Jan 16, 2007 12:50:02 AM
Anything to help a couple have a child who wants one bad enough to go to the trouble of seeking out a donated embryo should be okay. It's the people who don't want a child and get pg by accident, then treat the child accordingly that's the bad thing.
Good luck with the renovations, and here's to no more diarrhea!
Posted by: MereCat at Jan 16, 2007 3:58:39 AM
Well I live in Denmark where the parlament only recently passed a law enabling women to donate eggs (however only anonymously). In other words, my sisters may not help me with their eggs. Also, although both egg and sperm donation is legal, it may not be used at the same time. That is, the child MUST grow up with at least one biological parent. So while it is legal to a adopt a completely non-biological child, any surplus embryos from fertility treatments have to be destroyed rather than to be donated to another infertile couple.
Yet, while I don't aggree with the current regulations in Denmark, I must also say it gives me a creepy feeling that someone is systematically creating embryos specifically for "adoption"
Posted by: trine at Jan 16, 2007 5:39:56 AM
My only worry is the same as one posted above. There is a good chance, that at least in the town where this center is, brothers and sisters may be hooking up. Icky!
I wish you a speedy renovation, and a return to normalcy of poop.
Posted by: Chickenpig at Jan 16, 2007 7:28:10 AM
Hmmmm...how interesting on the embryos. How do YOU feel about that?
Posted by: Maryam in Marrakesh at Jan 16, 2007 8:46:57 AM
Hey wow, you are me (although I hope not). After a cancelled cycle in November (9 days of mega-stims and E2 didn't budge), I waited 43 days for my period. Annoying, since I had a followup consult w/ my RE scheduled and had to keep rescheduling because we were re-doing my day 3 labs and I wanted to wait until the results were in.
The next cycle was only 20 days though, and fell on the same day as my RE apt. (For the record, day 3 FSH was too high, we are trying a hail-mary natural IUI. We have to use donor sperm so can't even delude ourselves into thinking we can go home and get pregnant via sex).
Funny, for our plan B, the dr brought up embryo adoption as one option. I didn't realize it was that controversial. Doesn't seem that different to me from donor eggs + donor sperm (which would be our situation anyway) and seems like it would have much better odds of success.
Posted by: Swampy at Jan 16, 2007 9:10:52 AM
This is really something that fries my cookies.
"Oh, if you use donor egg you might wind up marrying your sister!"
Think about the astonomical odds against this happening. The percentage of children born using donor 'bits' is like .00975(and a whole lotta other numbers). Maybe halve that number (since the genetic mix wouldn't matter with gay couples) and you wind up with a tiny tiny number.
Then these children would only share a quarter of their ancestry and it matters even less. And since genetic abnormalities usually take generations of inbreeding to manifest and it matters even less.
Sheesh I would worry more about the sun exploding or getting hit on the head by bits of space debris falling from the sky.
Posted by: sheilah at Jan 16, 2007 10:11:44 AM
I don't know how I feel about the donor embryos mentioned in that article, except that there aren't enough of them. For all of the political hand-wringing about "those snowflake babies" there really aren't that many, and when we were seriously looking into donor embryos it was like trying to score drugs.
I sympathize with your menstrual plight. After my last IVF was cancelled it took forever and a day to start my period, which seriously messed with my mind.
Posted by: runnerwoman at Jan 16, 2007 10:13:23 AM
I smell a touch of Eugenics...
Posted by: Eilis at Jan 16, 2007 10:14:27 AM
"Ready-made" embryos give me a bad feeling, and I'm not sure why as donor eggs and donor sperm don't. At least with an embryo you would know that the egg and sperm played nice together. I don't know.
Jennalee Ryan gets the "foot in mouth" award of the day, however.
Posted by: Stacie at Jan 16, 2007 10:21:26 AM
It bothers me quite a bit, actually, because IMO it's selling human life for profit.
It's like....helping poor people for profit instead of helping them because you want to help them. Not that infertiles are poor people. Actually, after ART, maybe they are...
Posted by: colicmommy at Jan 16, 2007 10:31:33 AM
Selling human life for profit? Just like my RE!
Actually I don't see the savings. If you bought two for $5k it's not like you would get the best two from the cycle like in a traditional DE cycle.
And as someone who is working up to a FET with my second donor, it doesn't always work on the first try.
Posted by: at Jan 16, 2007 10:48:03 AM
It can't possibly be 'selling human life for profit.' Why? Because frozen embryos are classified as property, not people.
Proof: I've got a frozen embryo on ice. I cannot claim it on my taxes, but it is in my will, not as a dependant, but as part of our estate to be distributed in the event that we get run over by a clown car. Therefore: property.
Posted by: akeeyu at Jan 16, 2007 10:53:41 AM
You know, before you even get into the ethics of creating the embryos themselves, I think there's a big problem with Jennallee Ryan's basic assumption (as reported by TWP):
""If I do discriminate, it's that I only want healthy, intelligent people," Ryan said. "People will say, 'You're trying to create the perfect human race.' But we've always done gene selection just by who women choose as their husbands and men choose as their wives. This is no different.""
Reeeeeaaallllly?
So people chose their partners based on health and intelligence? Really? Always? Most of the time?
Huh.
Posted by: Menita at Jan 16, 2007 11:05:56 AM
It seems creepy to me though I can't say why, especially since I'd have no problems if someone used donor eggs and donor sperm.
Posted by: Jenn at Jan 16, 2007 11:13:51 AM
I'm not turned off by the idea necessarily, if it were part of my RE's portfolio of alternatives, but I am turned off by her--it feels like she's one step away from ebay. Talk about your home based business. Hey, maybe THIS is what all those signs nailed to telephone poles near the interstate off ramps are hawking--"Earn 1,000's from your own home each month!"
I see some fun board game spin offs. Go around the board and collect a stable of donors and then roll the dice to see what traits get manifested in the offspring--the win goes to the player that creates the next Nobel Peace Prize recipient.
Posted by: mellie at Jan 16, 2007 11:14:31 AM
To me, there's a difference between embryo adoption, and embryos-created-for-profit. The organization mentioned above smacks of soliciting donors to CREATE embryos, rather than finding recipient couples to "adopt" embryos leftover from other infertile couples' cycles.
I'm all for giving Totsicles a chance at life (i.e. adopting embryos that otherwise would be flushed or remain in cryopreservation indefinitely). Just not in favor of purposely creating embryos from donors, freezing them, and then selling them off.
Posted by: Woody's Girl at Jan 16, 2007 11:17:07 AM
Just to clarify the defintion of an embryo issue, in Canada they have now defined fetuses, embryos, sperm and eggs, as "sui generis", neither person nor property, but unique under law. This is similar to the law on organ donation and human cadavers.
This was inspired by and based on US court rulings in various states. I don't know where Akeeyu is from or the others, but this is a good definition, IMHO.
It means that here we can register them, store them, discuss them in custody cases, transfer, ship, etc. without wading into the debate of what "life" is.
In Canada, we've decided to allow for expenses, but forbid payment. But that's a separate issue, because we used this definition. Various US States could use this definition as well if they chose.
As for why or why not on the designer donor embryo thing, my concern is expectations. If you've picked out a designer embryo and the kid turns out to be imperfect or just boringly normal, are the parents prepared for that?
Years ago adoptees went through this, the pressure and expectations causing all sorts of agony, well documented in studies.
Knowing this risk, I've still expected too much with my own kids, had after much agony and IF. It's hard not to think, well heck I've gone through everything to have these kids, they should be perfect.
But really maybe they'll just be plumbers and help Julie on her reno. And that should be okay, right?
Posted by: Aurelia at Jan 16, 2007 11:25:00 AM
Here's my take: FWIW- I think there are far more ethical embryo donation agencies out there than this one. I have a big problem with the fact that a) they are made specifically for embryo donation, b) there is little screening of recipients and/or little chance for the potential children to find out info on their biological roots, and most of all 3)$5000 for 2 embryos is highway robbery. As someone who went through 26 embryos to have 1 child (and currently pregnant with twins), 2 frozen embryos for $5000 is an outrageous amount of money for the slim reality that one or both with make it out of frozen-ness and turn into a real-live actual kid.
Posted by: Leggy at Jan 16, 2007 11:30:08 AM
I say read The Genius Factory: The Curious History of the Nobel Prize Sperm Bank. Many of the issues were tackled there . . . and the so-called designer babies turned out to be fairly, well, normal. They didn't become Nobel Prize winners. They became somewhat talented, somewhat smart, or just somewhat regular. I can't say I don't find it creepy--I do. But is it a far enough deviation from one individual getting donor eggs and donor sperm and creating the embryo than obtaining an all ready made embryo? I don't know. All I know is that my gut tells me that it's different and it's problematic. But I can't really articulate why.
Posted by: Ali at Jan 16, 2007 11:54:08 AM
Good luck with the lack of laundry facilities. That's going to work well. And how clever of you to start in winter (even one as attenuated as this one). Brilliant.
I read the Slate article and was too disgusted by the anti-potential-birthmother quotations and general hate directed toward the adoption process to appreciate the embryo-donation issue itself.
If that's the place where the demand for donor embryos is coming from (those hateful birth mothers with all their control, don't they understand how painful infertility is -- as if it's a competition), then ... sigh. I'm just depressed beyond words.
But on the face of it, I don't see why Donor Embryos created in this manner should be any different than DE or DS. The supposed slippery slope isn't as slippery, nor as steep and hard to catch oneself on, as the writer implied.
I do think that a whole lot of attention has to be paid to the CHILDREN created through this and all donor gamete procedures, who are not likely (as a group) to be as indifferent to their genetic heritage as the parents seem to believe they will be. People have a pesky habit of not believing their parents when it comes to "information you shouldn't care about now that you're all grown up."
Posted by: Jody at Jan 16, 2007 11:54:32 AM
What wrong with buying embryos for me? It's the buying part and someone making a profit off of it. I am on the side of donation or at the very most, paying for the cost making the embryo. You can't sell organs for a profit legally, and thus you shouldn't be able to sell embryos for a profit. For me, it's the same.
Posted by: Nicole at Jan 16, 2007 11:56:06 AM
Hmmm, I saw something like this on CSI recently, and it didn't turn out so well.
But, I think adopting an embryo before implantation is really just like adopting a baby after birth....you just get it a little earlier. And the whole "human life for profit" thing? Someone could make the same argument for adoption because that costs money, too. But I don't see either option that way.
Posted by: Kyla at Jan 16, 2007 11:57:06 AM
Five gallon pails. Strong bleach water solution in one for fabrics that can tolerate it, and a box of baking soda (fill the rest with water) in the other, for colors or delicate fabrics. Everything can sit for a bit until you lug it to the laundry or get your washer back.
Once the industry built itself up, wouldn't it be treated as just another form of adoption?
Posted by: daysgoby at Jan 16, 2007 12:57:24 PM
ok, so no opinion here on the embryo thing (I seem to have a bad habit of not commenting on the intent of posts).
But seriously...um that stove??? I am so glad that you are getting a new one, I'm even a little misty eyed. Darling, I pray that the rennovation gods are quick and efficient and super good to you. Of course, I also hope that the runs have runneth over and dried up by now.
Posted by: asha at Jan 16, 2007 1:14:10 PM
Hi there! If you have time, could you check out my newest post and comment? I'd love to get some opinions on this:
http://tamingestella.wordpress.com/2007/01/16/mothering-magazine-an-insult-to-epers/
Posted by: Estella at Jan 16, 2007 1:39:46 PM
I don't see a thing wrong with using "pre-made" embryos, rather than selecting a sperm and egg donor. It reduces the prospective parents' choice, but also (supposedly) reduces the cost, so it seems like a fair trade to me.
What's ticking me off -- and granted, I am a castrating bitch, just ask my two dogs -- is this:
...Ryan is, however, using only egg donors who are in their 20s and have at least some college education and only sperm donors who have advanced education, such as a PhD or law degree....
Why are her standards for sperm donors higher than her standards for egg donors? Says a little something about what qualities are valued in women vs men, doesn't it?
Posted by: Nina at Jan 16, 2007 1:41:37 PM
I read the Slate article and was too disgusted by the anti-potential-birthmother quotations and general hate directed toward the adoption process to appreciate the embryo-donation issue itself.
If that's the place where the demand for donor embryos is coming from (those hateful birth mothers with all their control, don't they understand how painful infertility is -- as if it's a competition), then ... sigh. I'm just depressed beyond words.
----------------
Yes exactly.
Posted by: Wasabi at Jan 16, 2007 1:44:42 PM
And the whole "human life for profit" thing? Someone could make the same argument for adoption because that costs money, too. But I don't see either option that way.
--------------------
Except birthmothers aren't paid and egg donors are. And at least theoretically no one is paying for the baby itself. They are paying for the lawyers time and filing fees etc but there is not a cost for the baby. Agencies are non-profit for the most part and having gone through an agency placement (as a birthmother) and read horror stories on both sides from private adoptions I would never use that. Would be too scary for me.
I considered being an egg donor in my grad school days so I have nothing against it. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with being an ED or SD. I was just pointing out the reasons why you can't really compare adoption to buying embryos.
Posted by: Wasabi at Jan 16, 2007 1:47:23 PM
I just blogged on this story myself. My answer is both pithily short: "nothing, per se" and way too long to post here.
Posted by: shannon at Jan 16, 2007 2:41:34 PM
I couldn't answer in a short manner, though Jody pretty much says it all. So I blogged about it.
Posted by: OmegaMom at Jan 16, 2007 3:27:17 PM
There is nothing wrong with "buying ready made embryos". Using one is no different from using a donor embryo that is left over. Some people are having a fit because they can't tell the difference between an embryo and a baby, and they are offended at the idea that somebody would dare to create an embryo that might later be discarded because it isn't used. I say that anything that helps somebody who wants a baby to have one has to be a good thing.
Posted by: Diane at Jan 16, 2007 3:33:59 PM
Yeesh, imagine the pressure if you're one of the pre-made embryos... if you DO decide to be a plumber and help out with Julie's renovations (which, one hopes, will be finished well before any of these babies are old enough to be plumbers), how crestfallen will your parents be? You had such HOPE! And what if the supposedly-blonde donor begets a brunette with no aptitude for law?
So, philosophically, I see nothing wrong with pre-made embryos. But it would just be a little pressure-ridden and confusing for the kids... aw, but how is that different from our biological children?
Posted by: Erica at Jan 16, 2007 3:43:00 PM
Well, WRT to Nina's point, Ryan probably has more choice of sperm donors -- less work -- than of egg donors, and, as many of us IFers know too well, by the time a woman has secured her doctorate, her fertility -- yes, specifically the quality and number of her eggs -- has declined a lot. So it may not be "fair," but I suspect there are good reasons for focusing on different traits in donor dads and donor moms.
Posted by: Alex at Jan 16, 2007 5:40:47 PM
Why does the selling of embryos bother me? I used donor eggs and didn't see anything wrong with it. I guess it's the idea of intentionally trying to make a profit off peoples' infertility while adding nothing of real value to the equation. Ryan isn't donating the eggs, the sperm, the womb or the medical expertise. She's just the middlewoman, and I guess after years of costly infertility treatments it bugs me to have yet another person trying to make a profit off infertile couples. Same thing with agencies that charge $5000 to act as "brokers" for egg donors. Yeah, yeah, its capitalism, etc... but it still bothers me.
Posted by: Lynn at Jan 16, 2007 6:26:25 PM
I'm with Mellie- it's not the idea that is so strange, but the woman hawking it. She has some PR issues...
We choose our sperm donor based on his background, skin and eye coloring, and personal and familial health. His PhD didn't hurt, though. I guess if you want to make the process completely without bias, you'd have to make donor egg and sperm only available blindly. I don't think many people would go for that.
As far as the expense thing goes, $5000 for a pair of reasonably-likely-to-result-a-birth embryos *is* less expensive than even a single round of IVF with your own eggs/sperm. Granted she makes a profit, but so does our RE, OBGYN, and every other professional invovled in bringing our children into this world.
Posted by: erin at Jan 16, 2007 6:39:40 PM
Good Lord, woman, don't tell me you baked 500 cookies in THAT oven!
As for the diarrhea...yuck. Dealt with that many, many times. I've heard that bananas can cause constipation...maybe a good course would be to feed Charlie lots of bananas and also plain, white rice.
As for ready-made embryos....not really sure why it would be any different then donor embryos. I mean, just because you're looking for certain characteristics...don't you do that anyways when considering a donor embryo?
Posted by: Gina at Jan 16, 2007 8:27:48 PM
Nothing. Absolutely nothing is wrong with it! How long have sperm banks been up and running...?
Posted by: Mrs Knotty Mommy at Jan 16, 2007 8:45:18 PM
Oh I don't know, a few days without doing any laundry sounds like a vacation to me...
Posted by: Mari at Jan 16, 2007 9:23:56 PM
After every failed cycle, my period would come when I stopped the progesterone, but the next cycle would tend to be 47 days long. Seriously, I have failed enough IVFs to have a statistically significant figure here. I think my body is waiting for somebody to run the show for it, having grown lazy after being pumped full of drugs.
Posted by: Bella at Jan 16, 2007 9:52:22 PM
