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01/19/2007
UNGGGGGGGGGGGGH. And furthermore, UNGGGGGGGGGGGGH.
As far as we've discussed, Paul's reservations about trying to have a child through donor eggs have to do with the fact that I kind of suck at pregnancy. It's a legitimate position, I suppose; if I were to develop HELLP again, at best we would face a frightening birth, and at worst he'd have to marry that hatchet-faced spinster lady down the track because we all know a grief-stricken widower with a runny-nosed bairn still in clouts needs a good Christian woman t'do for 'im.
It's a tough point to argue. I do kind of suck at pregnancy. So far the best I've managed to come up with is a weak protest: "Well, you were willing to try with my eggs..." Paul's answer, spoken in the mildest of tones: "Actually, not all that willing."
It is hard to be persuasive when I can't easily articulate why I want another pregnancy so badly, when it doesn't make intellectual sense even to me. I haven't found a way to say it without sounding like the spoiled and thwarted child I'm often sure I am: I just do.
I've been working on it. Now, I get a lot of mail about this site. True, a fair amount of it pertains to the size of my penis, a sensitive subject for me, and much of it says things like, "Raunchy Brunette OLDERMOM in Glasses," which cuts a little too close to the bone for my comfort. But often it's good, and sometimes it's really good. Sometimes readers tell me, "You've managed to describe exactly what I feel."
I am asking you, please, to do that for me.
I've been quiet over the past several weeks. I've been finding I don't have much to say. Wait, that's not exactly true: I have a lot to say, but since it consists almost entirely of long animal grunts of pain, I've decided not to bore the Internet with it. Who really wants to read sixty daily posts in a row that say, "UNGGGGGGGGGGGGH"?
It's hard to find words these days, not only to describe what I'm going through now, but to frame my hopes for the future. I need help. It's not that I need to justify my desire; no one else could do that for me even if I felt it necessary. It's that I feel so uncharacteristically tongue-tied and wish, if I can, to be rescued.
Tell me: Why do you want what you want? The things you want and your reasons for that will, of course, differ from mine. But I'm hoping that as you tell your stories, I'll have that same moment some of you have described to me, where I think, "That's exactly right."
It's happened before, and I hope it can happen again. Because unless I can describe it, I can't really deal with it. I can't see the edges of what I'm up against. I can't either talk myself out of it or, somehow, talk Paul into it. Help me. Either I or Paul's second wife will be grateful.
Comments (148)
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I can understand your 'thwarted child' reasoning for wanting another pregnancy. You want it because you want it, your heart wants it - logic be damned.
My husband and I differ on the number of children we should have, and I don't have too many pg issues. I want another and he doesn't. He comes up with 100 logical reasons not to have one more child, which I can acknowledge but they don't change my mind.
So my side of the argument sounds like yours. "why should we?" and I reply "uhh, because I want to?"
"Paul,
I know it may sound irrational to your organized, logical male mind, but I *need* to be pregnant again. It's not just about being able to have a 'do over' after Charlie's pregnancy. My need is so basic, so strong that I cannot explain it in words. You just have to trust and know that when I say I have a need to experience it again, I do from every cell in my body.
Also, despite the difficulties I had with Charlie's pregnancy, with the information about FVL and my taking prophylactic Lovenox, my chances of having HELLP again are relatively low. We know so much more now that we could very well have an uneventful, full-term pregnancy. I know my being pregnant again scares you. It scares me, too. But my need to experiene it again and to have another Charlie outweighs any fears I have."
Yes.
Just...YES.
As usual Julie, you are speaking my own heart. I truly wish I had wise words to impart on you to strengthen your argument, but I am often just as befuddled as you.
I didn't exactly suck at pregnancy, but it could certianly be said that I really sucked at the birthing part. 2 weeks overdue, 2 failed inductions, 23.5 hours of hard core labor, a swollen cervix from which no baby could pass, a crash C-section and bleeding out 4 hours later and nearly dying. It was extremely scary. It took 12 nurses and 3 doctors to save my life and my uterus.
3 blood transfusions and 1 full week in the hospital later, I came home with my baby girl and my husband informed me that "he" is "never" going through sometime like that again.
That was almost one year ago.
3 OBs and 2 Maternal-Fetal specialists have told me that another attempt at a pregnancy and labor/delivery would be "somewhat risky," and if it came to that, any delivery other than a scheduled C-section would be "unthinkable." Because of the beating it took during the labor(s), C-section and the bleed out, the overall strength of my uterus is forever compromised.
And yet, I too am starting to feel that pull. That odd wave of desire for not just another pregnancy, but specifically for a chance at an unmedicated, vaginal birth.
I dunno...a chance to get it "right?" Maybe. Whatever it is, it's really strong.
I'm sorry for such a long, rambling comment that didn't actually share anything particularly insightful. I know what I want, but I have no idea why I want it or how to get it.
In any case, thank you, as usual, for your strength, your words and your wisdom.
Cheers.
After we had our second child my husband and I went through a terrible time in our marriage. I was ready to leave and I was angry with myself for pushing so hard to have a second child, even though part of me knew our marriage was rocky. What was I thinking, I asked my mom. And she said to me "Whether it was hormones or destiny, you needed to have this child and logic had no part in it." In our circumstances, it didn't make any sense to get pregnant, but I couldn't see anything but this baby. And he is the child of my heart. And we're in counseling instead of divorce, so maybe alls well that ends well.
Yup -- your post sounds just like me a year ago. We wound up using donor eggs for our second child (I'm 23 weeks pregnant now). My husband really didn't care if we had a second child, but I did. The most compelling reason for me was that I wanted my son to have a sibling. Not even for when he's growing up so much as for when he's older and my husband and I are gone. I want him to have some extended family, somewhere to go at Thanksgiving, someone who will remember his birthday...
My less concrete reason for wanting a second child is that I just do. I don't feel like I'm done with my family yet, and that feeling of incompleteness, that something is missing, drove our decision to proceed with donor eggs.
Aw, honey, I really sympathize with your dilemma. If you feel that pregnancy is too risky (and I understand why Paul is nervous), adoption would also be a great option for you. No one I've talked to has ever expressed regret that they went forward, either with donor eggs or adoption. If you want another child in your family, there are roads open to you. Wish I could take this hurt and indecision from you; been there, and it sucks...
I really wanted a second child. (Although i would've happily done without the pregnancy.) Hubs would ask me why and it just came down to 'Because i do!' Sure, there were other reasons - i thought it would be nice for my daughter to have some other family besides us, and hopefully someone that she can talk to on the phone as an adult when hubs and i do something stupid. And just the simple fact that two felt "right". But really, it just came down to 'I just want two.' No logic, no rhyme, no reason - just a primal desire to not have my first be my only.
Oh boy.
Here are the beginnings of the logical reasons we shouldn't have another child:
1) We can't afford it (husband is a freelance writer so makes very little, so we're looking at unpaid maternity leave, childcare, etc. That's without getting into college $, etc. He was SAHD w/ #1 but I don't think he can do it again w/o descending deep into depression.)
2) We don't have the energy for the one we have.
3) We have no social support network--nearest close relatives are either 1000 miles east or 1500 miles west.
4) We don't have time for ourselves or each other as it is.
5) (Not the best reason.) If we had another, we could end up with a boy, and I have NO idea what I'd do w/ a boy. Girls are relatively easy. I know nothing about boys. Oddly, neither does my husband. Yes, I realize you figure these things out as you go along, but still, it's there in my brain.
6) We are just, at the age of almost 4, starting to solve sleep issues. Do I want to start that again?
7) That first year was nearly the end of our marriage. What would this time be like?
8) The usual environmental arguments (greater stress on resources, etc).
And yet. I want another one. I'm about to turn 39, and the clock's ticking. I love babies. I never knew I would so much until my daughter was born, but the little sounds! The feet! The fuzzy hair! The smell! The Moro reflex! And the first smile, the drooling, the scooting around... And (of course this applies to me, unfortunately not so much to you): I liked being pregnant. I felt the best I've ever felt about my body. I liked craving cranberry spritzers and drinking as much of them as I felt like. And not feeling guilty about ice cream. Okay, the heartburn, not so much. And I feel like I know so much more this time! I can not mess up on some of the early stuff, and maybe avoid a c/s this time
So, what can I say? The bottom line is that my argument is mostly like Colleen C's. And yours. And everyone else above. "Why? Because I want to."
Because all my life I've dreamt of having a family - multiple children to drive me nuts, baseball games and ballet classes, pulling me in two (or more) different directions and loving every minute (well, I'll love it when I look back, maybe not right at the moment). To not have a child - and for my child to not have a sibling - would leave my life, my home, my heart incomplete. And in your case, it would leave Charlie's life incomplete, too.
And there was something a commenter said sometime last year, when you were trying to decide whether to try for a 2nd in any manner. Something along the lines of: "After our first, we felt like a couple like a child. After our second, we felt like a family." I still don't feel like a family, and I want that. I really want that.
De-Lurking to Comment:
I am pursuing Donor Egg and have had conversations with my partner as well. He doesn't get the need for pregnancy thing but is willing to go along because it's what I want. We don't have kids and I have never been pregnant.
Even though it is not my egg I do believe that growing it inside me creates a huge and not insignificant connection - and it is his genetic materials and this connects the two of us together.
Women take health risks to have babys all the time - it must be part of the unexplainable maternal instinct thing that men just will never understand. They don't get it and they never will - so unless he is terrified of losing you due to pregnancy complications - he needs to listen and respect your urges, instincts and needs-- take it on faith so to speak.
It takes a lot of thought for me to arrive at an honest answer to " What do I want?" without venturing into "What do I need?" or "What do I have to have?"
I have a son who will be two years and two months this weekend. He amazes us every day. We feel so lucky to have him in our lives. He was conceived with a lot of luck because our RE said we would never get pregnant without IVF (after a failed injection meds IUI cycle.) We showed up to the appointment with our new RE already pregnant. Now I am at the age where it is highly unlikely that we would be that lucky again. Before I got pregnant, I thought I needed a child to make my life complete. Now that I have one darling boy, I can process these feelings and want to experience a second child so much more than before. I love being a mother (and a wife...) and now understand how great motherhood really is. Ultimately, to be honest, I am happy with what I have been so lucky to experience so far.
Am I am selling myself short on the motherhood experience by stopping at one? I guess it is something that I will only know the true answer if I go through it. I had a few complications with my first pregnancy (pre-term labor being one of them). I'm not sure I could handle that again while nuturing my son (and my husband who seems to be more high maintenance than ever before???)
And while I do want another child for so many reasons, I am personally not willing to go through the fertility treatments again and risk the deep lows of disappointment that comes with a failed or cancelled cycle.
Ultimately, I want peace and harmony in a life that is full of health and happiness.
For me having another child after having a failed induction/36 hour labor ending in a c-section was partly about healing, about being able to trust my body to actually get it right. I was very lucky in that infertility never came into it. I think we are biologically driven to gestate children and it's a very powerful drive and is at least somewhat separate from the intellectual and emotional desire to have another child. I've never asked my real world friends who adopted after infertility if adoption helped them move past the pain of not carrying a pregnancy to term or having catastrophic birth situations. I think it did to some extent at least but it's almost a side-stepping rather than a cure.
I don't know what the "right" answer is - I just hope you find happiness and peace with what you end up doing.
Life is not measured by the breaths we take, but the moments that take our breath away. I know, cheesy but true. Having a child is the most wonderful, unexplainable experience. And until I had one I never knew what mattered most. Now I do. Do what's in your heart, Julie.
Julie, I'm not married and I don't own a home and I'll be 42 soon, and I've been through 3 IVFs and miscarried twins twice at 8 and 9 weeks. I've blown $60K on this little hobby over almost 4 years. Almost no one approves of what I'm doing. ("You should just adopt!") But I'm saving like mad to do a donor egg cycle because I know in my soul that I will regret it the rest of my life if I don't exhaust every possibility during my window of opportunity. I want to be pregnant and have a child. Period. Genetics don't matter to me. Why should you have to explain why? It's a soul-want, that's the best I can describe it.
How can we know all the whys?
Articulating our needs isn't easy for a lot of humans at the best of times, let alone when that urge that is resonating through us is so primal that it is nearly unthinkable and nearly or actually something that we can not ignore, thwart, rethink or move on from.
Maybe we need to be allowed to feel these things as intensely as possible, to accept that if we do, we are supposed to feel that way, everything else be damned.
Maybe it is through that process that we will see what it is that we must have to survive for the long term.
For a long, long time, I thought for me, it was having more children biologically. And right in that moment of those times, damn it, it was.
Unfortunately this was right after my husband had his vasectomy.
That which I could not articulate before became a very difficult time, filled with pain for us.
We held on and we worked through.
We now have more children now, , and right now, in this very moment - I can tell you that this is the rightest thing of all.
I feel that as intensely and with the same surety that I felt about being able to deliver more babies.
Both were right and true and important, it is just the times that are different.
Good luck to you and your husband.
I tried for five years before getting pregnant with my daughter through IUI. I lost her at 21 weeks due to incompetent cervix. Seven months and two IUIs later and I was pregnant with my son, who is now 2 years old. It took me six years almost to the day to finally bring home a baby.
Motherhood has been challenging for me. I love my son with all my heart, but sometimes I still wonder why we went through so much pain, heartache and disappointment to have a child--why, in fact, we wanted a child so badly. Sometimes, the answer I get is that I wanted it so badly because I thought I couldn't have it.
Someone once told me that if we don't have another baby, which we have been trying to have for over two years, that we should accept that "it's the way it was meant to be."
I would have punched this person squarely in the nose if it hadn't been my husband who had said it. I will continue until I reach the deadline I set for myself.
I feel that things are not meant to be; they are what we allow them to be. You have to ask yourself what you will, and will not, allow.
Because you've always hoped and dreamed about it
Because if there's one thing you want to do in the whole of the rest of your life, it's have another child
Because you will feel like infertility finally overtook you if you don't
Because otherwise you risk spending the rest of your life in this black hole of longing and anger and bitterness
Because you know how wonderful it is to have a child
Because Charlie deserves a sibling as much as anyone else
Because everyone else is doing it
Because you will keep asking until you get
Because you're worth it
De-lurking to say that I have really dealt with this issue as well (although without the fertility issues). With my youngest daughter, I had placenta previa and a 5+ week hospital stay. We had always wanted to have another child, but the experience really scared us. We decided to try again and then had a miscarriage less than a year ago. We struggled with what to do, but finally decided to try again (I am now 26 weeks pregnant with no sign of placenta previa or other complications). Why did we do it? It felt right, we did not want to live our lives in fear of what might happen, we wanted to show our other children a "normal" pregnancy (obviously no guarentees, but you can always hope). And we realized that every pregnancy carries risks whether those risks are fully appreciated or not. The difference between our 1st pregnancies and this one is largely just that our perspective has changed--we are more intimately aware of the risks having lived through them, but statistically, the risks were not significantly higher this time around. I am not sure that words can ever really describe the "why" that we feel in our heart--for me it just came down to what felt right. I also like what the song "I Hope you Dance"--"When one door closes I hope one more opens, and when you get the chance I hope you dance... (loosely quoted, not sure it is 100% accurate)" And to the fact that it just felt right to try again. I hope that this helps you figure out how you feel. Good Luck. Sarah
After 2 years of infertility treatments, I got pregnant. Only to find out that it was ectopic. Our next step is IVF. I am approved for IVF with my insurance... and my doc wants us to start with it ASAP. But I have this need to try for a while again 'naturally'. Why? I have no freaking clue. I know I have a pretty high chance of having a second ectopic. And that I'm risking my future fertilty (and life, appartently) if I do have another ectopic and a blow a tube. For whatever reason, I'm willing to take that risk. Can I explain why? I have friends who have done IVF and continue to tell me is isn't a big deal, and that I should not care how I get pregnant, it's just that I do get pregnant.... but here I am. Going to accupunture, drinking the herbs she gives me, and praying that I get pregnant 'naturally'.
Because that is what feels right to me.
This is just my opinion about my life, but maybe it will add to the discussion?
I believe it's okay to want another child, and it's okay to want another pregnancy.
After too many losses, and two living kids, my husband thinks I'm nuts, but I really do want another baby. And it's not about do overs, or desperation, but about how awesome my two boys are.
They are so amazing and wonderful and brilliant, how could I not want more? It's like looking at the most perfect gift from God, and saying, no, really, I don't want any more gifts from you, thanks but no thanks.
Silly maybe, embarrassing because I'm not really religious, but how I feel.
As for the risk of HELLP, things change with pregnancy care, and knowing you are at risk, the docs may handle it much differently this time. Maybe if Paul talked to a high-risk OB, he would feel better. (This helped my hubs a bit.)
As for donor egg, I have wondered this, but haven't asked. (and yes, I looked in your archives but didn't see it) Have you ever done IVM? (In vitro maturation) It's supposed to work for poor responders. If it was part of a past protocol and I missed it, apologies.
Maybe, I'm not the best person to ask. I have babies on the brain. The reason that I tell my husband that we have to have children is because I cannot conceive of my life without them. I may not be putting a pillow under my shirt anymore or secretly grinning like a manic when kids I take care of call me mommy by accident but the feelings have not changed. They are just as strong as when I walked around with a towel tied to my (then concave) belly. Of course now people ask me all the time if I'm pregnant, that's really fun, so I guess I don't need the superfluous linens. I mean damn, I'm 5'6 and only weigh 150 pounds, how pregnant can I look? It always hurts to say no. One day, I couldn't, so I spent the day shopping for my ever expanding belly. That helped a little. Who says we're too old to play pretend?
When I think of myself pregnant I see the best parts of me. I see the wonderful caring person that I have always strived to be. Not because I don't think parts of it suck, but because I want to do that for my child and for myself. I enjoy sacrifice for a cause. I don't enjoy flagellating myself for no good reason (some days at work, eating my husband,s cooking and saying how yummy it is because he does try) but the feeling of having something this wonderful and this big come from someone who has been so broken inspires me. Now that I have the pieces back together I want to give what I have to my own child. I give my nurturing to other children now, but it's not the same. I want to be Mom.
The best parts of me are my nurturing parts. I cannot imagine any part of my future life without at least two little ones. They haunt my dreams and ghost through my thoughts on a daily basis. There are times that I have to remind myself that they are not real and may not come the way that I would wish. But I feel it, the need, the calling. I could no more deny that need than I could deny being a woman, being a social worker, or loving my husband.
Yes, there are times I say this is crazy, I can't do that, but it always passes. And the more that gets thrown in my way, medical issues, brushes with scary pregnancies, and friends who have had difficult pregnancies, deliveries, and infants, I want it more. I can't explain why pregnancy has always thrilled me so much, but I believe that there is something bigger than us in charge. Whatever your belief may be, I can't reconcile that there isn't some sort of plan. We don't always follow the plan, and sometimes we wander off the path, but I always know when the path meets my tired feet. There's a quiet joy about it. A joy that you can't point to, because the feeling disappears from your easily recalled memory. If you know it's not right, for me when I was in school to be a teacher, there will be dissonance, and logic prevails.
Logic cannot top the plan that is there. I don't believe in complete predestination, but I do believe that we set ourselves challenges and joys before we come here. Most people may say that it's mumbo jumbo, but it's why I keep going and hoping. It's why I know that I will get there, one way or another. My feet are too firmly set on the ground. Sometimes your heart knows better than your brain. Not most of the time, but all of our "stuff" sometimes gets in the way of thinking clearly. I'm not trying to preach, just explain why I feel what I feel. I hope that you and Paul find your balance.
If women didn't want to get pregnant the human race would have died out a while back. It's like telling a man he can't ever have sex again. Those animal drives are almost unstoppable. We're hard wired. My drive was less about having a baby than an ache to be pregnant.
I'd love a second child but dh is not keen. It plays on my mind a lot, not helped by musak at the supermarket ("all that she wants is another baby" let's all sing along).
We went through five years of treatment to have a child because I couldn't imagine living my life without having experienced that moment where I met my newborn for the first time. I didn't care so much about being pregnant, or giving birth; I knew I could fully experience love and parenthood via adoption. But the only way I could have that instant of pure, unfettered newborn wonder and peace is by birthing a child. If I had known with certainty that it wasn't possible, I think I could have moved on. But while there was a shred of hope, I could not abandon that path, because I was terrified that I would have profound, lifelong regrets once it truly wasn't possible anymore. I ended up getting very, very lucky.
During the time we were pursuing treatment, I read and dreamed about international adoption (knowing that that's the direction we would move if treatment didn't work). The idea kind of got into my head, and now I'm starting to feel as if I will regret it if I don't get to experience that moment of pure, blessed wonder when a fully formed little person with life experiences of his/her own becomes my son or daughter. I guess I'm greedy-greedy-greedy and want it all.
Anyway, I can't help but wonder if you were cheated out of that magical moment of newborn peace, because it was so fraught with NICU fear? :( I so understand why you would want to try to get pregnant again, and I understand why it's hard to articulate. I'm very sorry you're in pain, and I'm hoping with all I've got that there are much better days ahead.
Julie, if I'm understanding you right you're having a heart/head dilemma -- that is, your heart wants one thing (another pregnancy, another baby) and your head is telling you something else (too costly, emotionally, physically and financially). I'm struggling with this myself, but backwards -- my head thinks I should try for another (fear of regretting not having another), while my heart is against it (fear of physical & emotional complications). But something my therapist told me is helping me reconcile things a little bit -- beware of decisions made based on fear. Thinking about that has helped clarify for me where I am on this journey, and maybe it will help you clarify your question of "why do I want what I want?"
Uhhh, I'm going to hit post before I go back and realize how little sense I'm making.
De-lurking to offer support.
I've never had the heartbreak of any of your experiences. But I do understand the need of having another child. It is not the simple "because I want it". Altho, it is difficult to give a better reason than that. The answer is that you feel incomplete isn't it? That you feel deeply that there is more of you to give to another child. That there is another child waiting for you to raise.
When that feeling of needing to give is examined it really stops feeling quite so selfish. There is nothing that can replace the raising of a child. The love the selflessness involved is so rewarding that it truly is what happiness is.
You feel a need to not be done with mothering. Trust your heart in this. Keep looking for what the right way is to make it happen. Whether it is donor eggs or adoption or who knows, you obviously are not ready to be done. And I understand how this need can easily overcome any fears.
For Paul tho? He sees the danger to you. He doesn't want to allow anything to happen to lose you. So, the fact he has been willing to try again shows he is respecting to some degree of your feelings even if he cannot understand them. He may never be able to understand, but maybe if you are able to express to him how much you appreciate his support despite his fears...
I wish you luck. I wish you comfort in your soul. And I thank you for sharing your experiences. You have allowed me the chance to understand things that others around me have gone through but have been unable to express through their own deep sadness. You have made me a better sister, friend and listener. Thank you.
For the same reasons I want another child where my husband does not, I think its the fear of regret. Will I regret and therefore resent my husband for not trying to have another child? Will I regret leaving my child with no siblings to lean on as I get older? I really fear the regret of what might have been rather than being content with what I have.
I'm dealing with secondary infertility (I have one born-and-growing child, who was conceived with textbook ease), and recurrent miscarriages. The most recent one was this past fall, and it was m/c #3. Plus my FSH levels are rising, and we all know what *that* means.
I've been addressing this question in therapy. If I were to stay on this stupid pregnancy roller coaster, I would want to do it without IVF because my insurance doesn't cover it, and I can't stand the idea of spending that much money and still being this disappointed at the end of the day. And without donor eggs because, well, see above. It works the first time for some, but I'm not that much of a gambler. (I have friends who have offered to donate their eggs, knowing full well what this entails, and their generosity brings tears to my eyes.)
I claim that we're not interested in adoption because my husband isn't, but honestly, if I were extremely interested I would have pushed for it. Because the more I think about it, the more I realize that for me the point on some level is to achieve a pregnancy as well as a child. It's stupid, but I'm that kind of person in other arenas and it's hard to let go of that tendency in this one.
Plus there's the grief. A grown relative dies and you grieve and you think, "if only I said..." "If only I visited more..." but we know that person is gone.
But those of us who are grieving lost pregnancies, our "If only" thoughts make us feel like we get a do-over, whether because we ovulate every month or because the fertility clinic will happily sign us up until our money runs out. So it's hard to let go of "just one more time."
I'm trying to separate the grief if-onlies from what I want to do next. And right now, I think I want to get off this goddamn roller coaster because I am so fucking tired. I know this makes me a piker compared to Julia and Tertia, but this isn't a competition...right?
I have no idea whether this is helpful to you, but while I have your ear I just want to say that in the past few years your story has been so helpful to me. Thank you for that.
The kids have this book that I love because it sums up exactly why I want more children and why I am insanely willing to go through treatments again (or try a different path this time).
It's called Seven Silly Eaters by Hoberman and the gist of the story is that this mom has seven kids (the uber-fertile part doesn't make me feel great about myself, but you need to get past that little nugget in order to get to the reason for the...desire) and they all only eat one thing each. And they each like their one thing very much--it's what keeps them in good moods (in other words, life running smoothly).
So these are the words that make explain that ever-growing, single-minded desire:
Their appetites kept growing too!
But not their choice of what to eat
Each child continued to repeat
They wanted what they'd had before--
The trouble was
They wanted more
Creamy oatmeal, pots of it
Homemade bread and lots of it!
The constant desire for the same thing--that repetition of the same desire for motherhood doesn't go away once you have one child. I think it is coded so deeply in our DNA that it becomes our oatmeal or homemade bread--just because you've had some, doesn't mean you don't want more. Now you've tasted motherhood and you know how well it fits your heart. You want the same thing--just more of it.
At least, that is what runs through my mind as I read this book to the kids and consider why I'm insane enough to put myself and now them through these emotions.
The kids have this book that I love because it sums up exactly why I want more children and why I am insanely willing to go through treatments again (or try a different path this time).
It's called Seven Silly Eaters by Hoberman and the gist of the story is that this mom has seven kids (the uber-fertile part doesn't make me feel great about myself, but you need to get past that little nugget in order to get to the reason for the...desire) and they all only eat one thing each. And they each like their one thing very much--it's what keeps them in good moods (in other words, life running smoothly).
So these are the words that make explain that ever-growing, single-minded desire:
Their appetites kept growing too!
But not their choice of what to eat
Each child continued to repeat
They wanted what they'd had before--
The trouble was
They wanted more
Creamy oatmeal, pots of it
Homemade bread and lots of it!
The constant desire for the same thing--that repetition of the same desire for motherhood doesn't go away once you have one child. I think it is coded so deeply in our DNA that it becomes our oatmeal or homemade bread--just because you've had some, doesn't mean you don't want more. Now you've tasted motherhood and you know how well it fits your heart. You want the same thing--just more of it.
At least, that is what runs through my mind as I read this book to the kids and consider why I'm insane enough to put myself and now them through these emotions.
Its such a crappy place to be, isn't it? At a crossroads and not sure which way to go or to know where you want to go but not be able to articulate why and/or convince your spouse. My husband said about 14 months ago that he'd be happy with one, but I just couldn't.
A lot of infertility is about making compromises:
I don't want to have a baby without sex.
Okay, maybe an IUI isn't so bad, but I'll never do IVF.
Okay, maybe IVF isn't so bad, but I'll never give up on my genetics.
Okay, maybe donor egg/sperm/embryo isn't so bad, but I want to be pregnant.
Okay, maybe I don't care about being pregnant, I just want to have a baby.
And on and on and on. And sometimes the threshold bar that we swear not to cross (for whatever our peculiar individual reasons are) moves and sometimes it doesn't.
FWIW, in the past, your pregnancies, which have sucked, did bring an ultimately healthy, wonderful, amazing child. And your risk is no less now than it was then, and if anything, will be lower because they actually know what the hell the problem is and you'll be taking lovenox and monitored like hell.
You have a strong desire to have another one, and your choices are donor egg, donor embryo, or adoption. Each of those has different implications, different processes and only you know where your "line" is that's just uncrossable right now. Sounds like you prefer donor egg because at least 1/2 the genetics will be shared with Paul & Charlie, you'd get to experience pregnancy again, and you wouldn't have to go through the "are you worthy?" critique stuff that goes with donor embryo and adoption. (I know I'm being a little harsh there, but its hard not to feel judged during the home study and/or donor embryo process.)
Is any of this resonating?
The desire for a child never, ever goes away once you have it. Paul is scared of losing you, and maybe does not have the desire as deeply as you. That deep need to have another child will not bend to reason or time, though. Time as we women know, is against us, and Paul has to understand that despite the risks, you will be deeply unhappy if you are not able to keep trying until you are ready to give up. It's either him or the pool boy. haha
Did you get that article about "minimal intervention IVF" in the US press recently? If not, do say, and I'll dig out a link. You might be able to sidestep the rigmarole of drugs drugs DRUGS if it were appropriate for you.
I am also delurking to post a comment. I had a miscarriage in February of 2005. I was 16 weeks. Baby stopped developing at 9. In February of 2006 I gave birth to a little boy. My third child. I call him my 4th just because of he is too me. That baby I miscarried is still haunting me. It says you really want to try for a 5th pregnancy. My first two pregnancies were uneventful and easy.
When I watch my son walk around and hold his arms out me to me... I know there is another soul out there calling out to me to be its mother.
My friend told me once she just knows when it is time to have another baby. She can feel it.
I told my husband that I felt that he deserved to be a father and we all (including the kids) deserved on more kid. Everyone else worries about the demands on me but I can handle it.
Why do I want what I want? Oy, that's a tough questions.
The reasons range from biological to spiritual to fear-of-failure to everything inbetween. I've taken enough psychology classes to know that people are surprisingly bad at correctly identifiying the motives behind their behavior and I assume I'm no different. But I'll give it a shot when it comes to wanting children.
I think the drive to have children is especially strong because it is the intersection of so many motivations. At the most basic levels, mammals reproduce, it's just what we do. Throw in the emotional rewards and the spiritual aspect and, wow, is that a powerful drive. And is it any wonder that words can fail us in trying to articulate that?
Plus, I avoid the work of grieving the things I wanted that did not come to pass like the plague. It just seems easier to subject myself to all kinds of pain rather than the pain of letting go of a deeply, deeply held desire. Just ask my long suffering therapist.
Lastly, I like to believe that with enough desire and hard work, I can make my life work out the way I want it too. All evidence to the contrary.
I want another child as much for my son as for me.
I lost both of my parents within 10 months of each other less than four years ago. They were young at 57 and 61. Had I not had my two younger brothers back then, to help survive those losses, and now to know that I still have a 'family', I'm certain that I would feel like an unloved abandoned orphan. I've got a loving husband and amazing toddler, but that extended family is important to me too.
What a topic! I could go on and on justifying our decision to TTC#2 but in the end, it ends up boiling down to one reason. And its a selfish, stupid reason at that. But, really, isn't having kids anyways? It isn't really for them, as they don't exist yet. Its for us.
My reason, my real, underlying reason? To have a spare. Just in case of worst case scenario, so I might still have a reason to go on.
And I'll tell you I had a horrible horrible birth experience (felt them cutting me open during my emergency-c-sec when the spinal didn't work properly - this was after 26 hours of labor with a faulty epi and much more - it was horrific and the reason it took me so long to decide whether or not to TTC#2).
Ugh. I just started to answer this, but it got long so I took it home to dump all over my own site. I'm sorry you're, uh...constipated.
the desire is either there or it isn't. this is not going to be a very popular comment, but i think our desires are never rational, and we (as members of our particular species) are just barely resourceful enough to deal with them rationally. a lot of scientists and behavioral psychologists have been researching the hell out of the idea of what we call "free will", and are finding it harder and harder to prove that it exists at all. people will act in certain ways and then almost invariably give an after-the-fact explanation for their choice of action that doesn't match up with the "real" reason. we like to pretend that we have control over what we're doing, but a huge amount of it seems to just be conditioned behavior.
so basically, it would seem that your desires are not under your control anyhow, and your response to these desires is almost entirely conditioned. that doesn't give you a whole lot of wiggle room, i realize, for making a choice pro- or con- trying for another pregnancy, but hey, it doesn't seem like that's what you're looking for anyhow.
now, if you're anything like me, this comment will piss you off just enough that you'll say to yourself "self, that's so irritating, i think i'll just change my mind and decide NOT to try another pregnancy, just to prove that that nosy sylvia person is wrong."
:)
I have gone back and forth about wanting a second baby.
It took us two years and three artificial inseminations before we got pregnant on our own. So we spent some money, but not as much as we could have on it. Currently I have the worst insurance known to man, and it would cover nothing, so if we were to try again, it would have to be without any help.
My husband is older, has a daughter and step-son from his first marriage and is done, short of us winning the lottery. He has been staying at home with our 18month old and while he loves it, it has been hard on him to not be out working.
Anyway, my reasons for wanting another: so our son would have a sibling close in age to grow up with; so I could be pregnant again (b/c I loved it); and perhaps most importantly and selfishly, b/c I want a chance to have a natural childbirth. My son was breech and my doctor said I had to have a c-section and it was the worst experience of my life. I wanted the whole birth experience, I wanted to know what my body was capable of as a woman. And I didn't get it and I will probably forever be bitter, sad and angry about that. Don't get me wrong, I love my son more and more each day, but I feel like I was deprived of the ultimate female experience.
And yet, if I am being rational that doesn't seem like enough of a reason to have another child. It feels right for it to be my husband and my son, to have my "boys." Of course, I am sure if we had a second I wouldn't be able to imagine not having him or her. But when I am being rational I think about how lucky I am to be happy with my husband and how perfect our son is and I think, ok, maybe this is enough.
But I do understand the longing, and I don't doubt that it will rear its head every once in awhile. And that is something I will just have to deal with.
I really have no answer for you. (Uh..then why I am commenting??)
People ask me this question a lot. Why did you want to adopt an older child from foster care?
And I don't have an answer. Why do I like iced tea? Why do I want to sleep with Patrick Dempsey? I just do.
My wants, needs, desires, interests are what makes me.
Now I'm ready to adopt again. There is part of me that wants a baby, but I don't really want to be pregnant. Why?
I have no idea. It's just me.
Sometimes I think we go a little too far when we try to analyze why we want something, why we fear something, why we need something. I think there are answers sometimes, but other times I think it comes down to just something inside of us that is longing for something.
Why do I want what I want? Because I'm me, and that's what I want. It's a simple, and complicated, as that.
I feel your pain.
Although I conceived naturally, I had the pregnancy from hell. Hemmoraghing at 14 weeks, pre-term labor at 18 weeks, an abruption at 23 weeks that landed me in the hospital until my son was born prematurely at 33 weeks because I developed congestive heart failure. Add another month in the NICU, a month on home oxygen and RSV at 2 months. Oh, and lest I forget to add the debilitating PPD that nearly cost me my life and my marriage.
Yet, with our son now 2 (just a few weeks younger than Charlie), I'm feeling that undeniable urge to breed again. To do so would go against all common sense and medical advise, yet, I WANT ANOTHER BABY, DAMMIT, AND I WANT A CHANCE AT A 'NORMAL' PREGNANCY!
Oh, man. This question.
I do not suffer from infertility and my life has never been in danger, so I don't know how that might factor into it. What I do know is that I'm 31 and we have one two year old who is incredible and I'm ready for another one.
My husband and I have tense discussions where he reiterates the thousands of reasons it's a bad idea right now. Not enough money, I'm going to school, it would ruin our future, blahdeeblah.
All of those things are right, intellectually. NONE of them drown out my absolute inner conviction that a baby at any time, any way I could get it, would be a good thing. I think about being pregnant and I just want to sing out loud. I think about having another baby and every cell in my body agrees.
Because I also love my husband and because he is not experiencing this feeling, I will conceed to waiting two years until I'm done with school. It's two years too long, but I'll wait.
The thing that scares me, and this really scares me, is that I don't see getting to the "end" of my having children. I don't see having a baby and saying to myself, "Ahhh. I'm done now."
The Troublemaker wanted two, originally. I made it clear I wanted three. Now I'm wondering if three will mark the end for me, or if I'm going to rabidly petition for a fourth or even fifth.
I know that it's unquestionably rooted deeply in my biological makeup. My cells say "more babies" and I'm not one to ignore the call like that. I'll postpone answering, but answered it will be.
I often think that maybe this is what people with religious faith feel like. It's always eluded me, feeling this way about God; the absolute faith. I feel that about more kids, whatever way I can get them.
I'm a reproduction Jehova's Witness.
I couldn't have children using my eggs. It took me four years to appreciate that fact and move on to donor eggs. It was really hard to get to that point. For me, the desire to be pregnant was so very, very strong that adoption wasn't an option. It wasn't logical. My husband didn't care where our child came from. But I do not regret the decision to use donor eggs. Pregnancy just rocked. I didn't have your preganancy issues; I was pretty "low maintenance." And I would do it again in a heartbeat. Because of all the things that I have ever done in my life, nothing beats carrying life inside me.
Wow.. tough one.
I've never had a problem with fertility before.. 2 miscarriages, but 4 good healthy kids. Never had the desire to have any more.
But then? I get divorced, and remarried.. and for some strange reason, at 42 years old, I *need* a baby. And now I'm struggling to conceive and carry. Two miscarriages in the past year, and we're still trying. I don't know if I'll be able to have another one. All I know is that I need to try. If I lose another? I don't know.. we'll revisit that when the time comes.
But darn it.. when you get that baby "hunger", it's hard to get it out of your mind. Even if you already have a kid or kids.
Good luck, hon. Wishing you the best in whatever you try.
No rhapsodic personal cathexis here. But you might, if you haven't already, try reading some evolutionary psychology or ethology. At first every fiber of your feminist self will protest---most of mine did, too---but if you can get past your college-era prejudices, you (and your husband) might find a vocabulary and conceptual framework to explain your respective instincts on this. The process has been nothing short of transformative for me.
You might start with Sarah Blaffer Hrdy [not a typo], "Mother Nature: Mothers, Infants, and Natural Selection" (or something to that effect).
(I cheated & copied this from another place I wrote it...seemed to fit here today)
You don't need to justify your feelings of wanting another child to me. I hear you! I don't think it is greedy, nor do I think you don't appreciate what you already have in your DS. I do NOT think you should "just be happy with what you have".
I never prayed "let me have one, and I won't ask for anything else". I never made the statement, I just want a baby. I have always wanted babies...plural. I have always prayed for children...not just a child.
Am I fortunate? Yes. Do I know that there are plenty of people right here, on this very website, who would be thrilled just to have ONE, yes. I know this, and my heart breaks for those still trying to bring home their first baby. Lordwilling, it will happen soon for them. And when it does, I will be the first one to support them in their attempts to add to their family!
I grew up with 3 sisters. I still can not imagine not having them. I know plenty of "only" children that have grown up to be wonderful, compassionate, caring people. I am not worried about that.
I want to have a family because I LOVE family. I want to hear "Amber, Ray & the kids are coming over". Because I want my son to know what it is like to have someone be so close to you, you see the tears in their eyes before they actually fall. And I want another child because I loved being pregnant (even when I gained 75lbs!), and I loved waiting with anticipation to hear what sex our child was. I want another child because it makes my heart happy, and being a mom is like winning the lottery.
I want another child because my husband is the absolute best father and he should have lots of kids. I want another child because I am a great mommy, most days, and I feel like I was put on this earth just to do it. I want another child because when I put my son down for the night, I am excited about what tomorrow will bring, and I want to share that with someone else too!
I want another child so I can love another person the way I love my son. Because that love is refreshing, and pure, and so very rewarding.
I want the family I dreamed of...and I don't want infertility to rob me of it. That's why I am fighting so hard.
doing a donor egg cycle in a fwe months. and I cant wait.
I always wanted a 3rd child. My husband was happy with the way things were, but agreed with me. Following 2 miscarriages, he finally said enough. We're playing a numbers game, and I'm afraid we're going to lose. I agreed with him, because the losses were too hard on me ( I am so in awe of all you women who pick yourselves up and keep going.). Even though we agreed to not try for anymore, I still had that longing deep inside me. My family didn't feel complete, someone was missing at the dinner table, from the family pictures. Then I discovered that while we were deciding no more, I had gotten pregnant. That stubborn baby is now 20 months old (still stubborn), and you know what. I am at peace, I don't want another baby. I am done. It is a very difficult thing to articulate to anyone, that primal need for a child. But, I know for myself, I wouldn't have felt complete without my daughter. And I think I would have gone on to resent my husband and his fear. Only you can know what will make you complete. Wishing you peace
Of course you want another pregnancy. We all do, and frankly, thinking that you suck at pregnancy based on previous trials is a legitimate reason to want the chance to try it again. There has to be a part of your psyche that wants another try, wants to prove that you CAN SO do a rockin' job at pregnancy, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
I very, very much felt this after my first pregnancy ended in a second trimester miscarriage. I desperately wanted to get pregnant again and have a healthy pregnancy, not just because I wanted to have a child but to prove that I was capable of that biologically essential task. I got overwhelmingly lucky; my man knocked me up again quickly and I got to have the healthy pregnancy and relatively easy delivery I craved. Oh yeah, we also got a fantastic boy out of it.
And now, after 20+ fruitless months of trying for another child, I find myself focusing more on the desire to just get pregnant, to PROVE that I still can conceive. I even found myself thinking that I'd welcome another miscarriage, just because it would show my parts were still somewhat functioning. How fucked up is that? (I quickly noted to God or anyone else eavesdropping on my thoughts that I did NOT really want a m/c, but another baby. Healthy baby. Please.)
I don't know how to convince Paul of this. Too bad feminism has made "I'm a woman, I'm supposed to be irrational" unacceptable as an excuse....
I hated being pregnant. I also had the most painful, debilitating c-section ever, complete with blood transfusions. My twins are seven weeks old and I'm still in pain. There is no amount of money or emotion that will make me go through that again. I contemplated becoming a heroin addict, it hurt so bad.
But...I think all the difficulties came from the twin status of my pg, and I can't imagine one without the other. If I had only had one, I'm almost positive I'd be willing to go through it all again for another. They just love each other so much! So in a way I'm glad I went through all that, since now I know I'm done. Peace as you work through this. Love M
I read the first few and realized I could stop there. That is in fact what it boils down to Julie and they are the only words to describe it: I just do. Is it physical or emotional or (and god don't mention this one to the guys cause it scares them) hormonal? Is it embedded in our brains or our hearts? Is society making it an issue? Can we afford it or will we personally kill the last tree in the rain forest doing the paperwork? Does it really matter?
I just do. Its why we are trying again. Despite the damage pregnancy does to my body and his paycheck. Despite the damage to both our nerves and our carpet that new kids cause.
I like you can't explain it in a more cohesive or for that matter coherant manner. It dosen't make sense to me why the hell should Hubby get it?
I need this. I just do.