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05/16/2008
Birds, bees, FETs...
Early one morning, Nancy Nisselbaum was readying her 6-year-old son Marshall for school and herself for work when he asked: "Mommy, how does the sperm get from the donor to the doctor?"
Nisselbaum, a single mother by choice, I imagine the article continuing, turned an unattractive shade of magenta, voided her bladder in panic, and stammered so convulsively as she answered that she bit off a part of her tongue. "Well, son, when a man between the ages of 18 and 32 who prefers to remain anonymous and a sterile plastic specimen cup love each other verrry much..."
In a recent article in the Washington Post, Elizabeth Agnvall dips a toe into the question of how to talk to your kids about more contemporary sexual concerns than the ones our parents peed themselves over. "Forget the Birds and the Bees," commands the article's subhed. "Kids Are Asking about IVF, Transgender Pregnancy, and STDs."
Despite the sensational subhed, it turns out the experts counsel an approach no different from talking about any kind of value-based issue: Start talking about it early, and keep doing it throughout your child's upbringing. Acknowledge your own discomfort, if you feel it, but don't let that stop the conversation. Talk about the emotions involved as well as the mechanics. And for God's sake leave out the part about the stack of well-thumbed magazines.
Most of this seemed familiar to me. But then it's not hard for me to imagine talking to a child about such matters when one is on the inside. I can talk about what it feels like to love someone enough to want to have a family with him. I can speak with some authority about what leads someone to undergo fertility treatments. I can explain firsthand what it felt like to read donor 294's profile and know, even with the paucity of information we were given, that she would be the one.
Harder, perhaps, when you yourself are uncomfortable:
Kirstin Madaus, a former obstetrics nurse from Falls Church, said her 9-year-old son and 7-year-old daughter always seem to come up with tough questions while she's driving. [...] The most recent car-ride challenge? Her kids have friends with two mommies and recently asked how the babies got there without sperm.
"I just started talking and talking. Half of my brain is going, 'Shut up, shut up.' "
The article did raise an interesting, if now only theoretical, question: What would I have told our kids about their conception? The question is now purely theoretical because over the last five years I've told our story to everyone on the Internet, and it would be foolish to suppose that one day Charlie's future employer won't ask, in that all-important final job interview, "So! Tell us how you've dealt with challenging situations in the past. For example, we see your mother used to think of dirty Led Zeppelin lyrics while she was up in the stirrups. How did you overcome that soul-deep mortification?"
Assuming his answer will not be "matricide," it's a pretty safe bet that he'll grow up knowing, at the very least, that Paul and I required medical assistance to conceive him. And for this baby, now 28 weeks along, there was never any question but that he'd grow up knowing that his existence has been made possible by a generous grant from donor 294.
But if these factors hadn't been in play — my promiscuous disclosure, my ovarian insufficiency — what would we have said?
I am not sure we would have said anything. I think perhaps not. When you take the third party out of the equation, what are the truly important parts of the story? Your parents wanted you. They loved even the idea of you. It felt like a fucking miracle when they learned you were finally coming. And what's so different about that from the way anyone else came about?
Do you think it's important for ART kids to know exactly how they were conceived? If you have kids, do you expect to tell them, or have you already? If you're hoping to have kids, what's your plan? And will one of y'all please hire Charlie one day? Because nothing you ask him will be a surprise.
Posted by Julie at 07:29 AM in I've learned a lot...but I'm not sure it's worth it. | Permalink
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Comments (87)
I guess I told my kids because I felt there was nothing to hide... and I know it's important for kids to grow up without secrets.
They're probably better off just knowing all along than running the risk of them finding out later, when it becomes a much bigger issue.
Posted by: Rachel Inbar at May 16, 2008 7:47:18 AM
My guy just turned 7 last week and so far all he knows is that mommy's body didn't work the way it was supposed to and so we had to use special medicines. The only reason it's really come up so far is because we have to keep explaining why he doesn't have and won't have a brother or sister he so loudly and sorrowfully begs for.
Eventually, when he really can understand it, we'll give the more thorough explanation but this one seems to work just fine for now.
Posted by: Hero at May 16, 2008 8:24:46 AM
We adopted two of our daughters, and the oldest remembers some of the details from the second's adoption, even though she was only 2 at the time. Our third daughter was conceived after 5+ years of infertility treatments, and was born 7 months after her sister's adoption. Again, oldest daughter has vague recollection of the multitude of doctor visits, Mommy being on the exam table for various procedures, etc. etc.
We've always been open with our girls about how they came into our family. As a matter of fact, TODAY is DD#2's birthday, so we are going to spend snippets of time today recollecting the events that brought us together. Pictures of her birth family. The profile that we created to send to birth mothers. Recounting the moments spent in FL, waiting for her to be born...
HOWEVER children become part of a family, I personally think the most important thing is to make sure they are loved and that you stress how much they mean to you. Being open about quirky details - like adoption, fertility treatments, etc. - need to be brought up early and often, so it doesn't turn into a "dark secret" that gets sprung on them later in life. Because... really... what's the shame in adoption or pursuing medical intervention, to achieve parenthood?!
I'm so excited for you, Julie. I rarely comment, but have been a loyal reader for years now. I can hardly WAIT to see the amount of boxes you get THIS time! LOL
Posted by: Woody's Girl at May 16, 2008 8:29:50 AM
This is something DH and I are struggling with right now. The only way we can have children is through a sperm donor. Part of me wants to keep it a secret that only DH & I, if only to protect, and the other part of me knows that secrets are not good to have.
Posted by: Jessica at May 16, 2008 8:42:54 AM
My son, who will be two next month, is a donor egg baby and we are doing another DE cycle next month to try for a sibling. We have always planned to tell our children about how they got here and we are very open about our infertility journey. I have a couple of kids books that are supposed to help explain things and we look at them from time to time, but right now he is really only interested in the pictures. We really feel that secrets can only lead to hurt feelings and resentment and we have no embarrasment or shame in using ART/DE, so I have no qualms in telling him whatever he wants to know.
I have kept copies of both donor profiles for them to look at down the road if they want and I will always be open to questions. The DE thing is more a fact of life for us than some big, momentus thing that we get all worked up about. I really doubt that it will come up all that often through the years. The donor gave a precious gift of cells and DNA, but Papa and I are doing the work that makes a family.
I will admit that from time to time I get a little pang of fear that they may say "you're not my real mom" or some other such teenage barb, but I know my son loves me and knows I'm his Mama and nothing is going to change that.
Posted by: Anna at May 16, 2008 8:51:00 AM
Since our ART conceptions didn't need a third party...except for the RE, the embryologist, and a bevy of helpful nurses, I am all for the "we loved you enough to go through hell to have you it felt like a miracle when you arrived." philosophy. However, we are not certain exactly WHY my husband's sperm were so crappy, so we may need to share some of the ordeal with our sons if they should have conception problems. (a bout of mumps when my hubby was 13 and possible injury to the family jewels due to a zealous bicycling hobby have been pointed out as possible culprits). My main concern about this subject right now are the questions thrown at us within earshot because they are twins, the "did you do fertility treatments?" or "did you take drugs to have your twins?" questions that total strangers seem to think are appropriate to throw at us while at the check out line at Target. Eventually the twins may overhear these questions and want us to elaborate, and I'm not going to lie to them like I might to total strangers.
Posted by: Chickenpig at May 16, 2008 8:58:53 AM
You know, I think you're right that it's the 3rd party that makes it tricky. We are a family unashamed of nudity, so my 2 year old has asked me about the scar on my belly (from the c-section that delivered him). For now, he's satisfied that that is the zipper they used to bring him out of my belly when he was tired of living in there.
After all the risks, we've decided to look for a gestational carrier for a second child. I'm not sure yet what we'll say. Our son will be over 3 before we are able to get started on this. He will be able to understand more. I'm not sure how we're going to explain it to him (I'm sure simplest terms -- that's our baby in her belly). And later, I don't know what we'll say when that chld asks me about the zipper -- that's where your brother came from but you came from another belly? At least I have time to think about that one!
Posted by: Miss W at May 16, 2008 9:05:44 AM
I think perhaps children mainly want to know their own unique story. They have no preconceived notion of ART "vs." natural conception. They simply want to know the story of how they themselves began. The hard part is that they'll discuss it with other people too, outside their immediate family, and that's where they'll find judgement and confusion.
Posted by: LK at May 16, 2008 9:08:32 AM
Whoa, great insight. Thanks.
Posted by: Julie at May 16, 2008 9:15:02 AM
Delurking to say thanks for this, and I'll come back and read through the comments. Actually, should I travel down this road, my issues are not so much with telling the children, which I think given the other things I've had to explain, would be not horribly uncomfortable. But telling the in-laws? I'd actually like to keep that bit of information under my hat. Keep 'em guessing.
Posted by: tash at May 16, 2008 9:31:36 AM
I'm pretty sure I'll tell our baby son, in time, that Mummy's ovaries don't work so well. And that we conceived and lost the two babies before him with the help of some nice people wielding petri dishes and long tubes. And I could possibly communicate the fact that his own conception was unexpectedly and happily organic.
It's telling him that Mummy has two uteri that I'm not looking forward to.
If it were only a matter of having all the right bits doing all the wrong things, I'd tell him just as young as he could listen to me. However, I can picture the scene: informing him conversationally that Mummy has sluggish, under-performing and recalcitrant ovaries... then adding the extra detail of a rather odd uterine anomaly... and watching him toddle off to excitedly share said facts, inaccurately, with all his little chums. Hmmmm. No. I feel it may have to wait until he's older. Lots older!
Posted by: Ann Baylis at May 16, 2008 9:44:28 AM
I have to explain why there were three eggs waiting for the sperm, so our kids have known for a while (maybe age 3?) that I had to take some medicine to help me get pregnant. We have blurred over the IUI/spousal donation aspects of the story for now, because it's not really what they're asking about. They do know all about the mechanics of sex, menstruation (ah, the joys of bathroom invasions), etc.
FWIW, I don't think there was one bit of carry-over from the invasive questions we fielded from strangers to the kids' questions about their status as multiples. The questions ease off considerably by age 4 (I'm sure that's not true for folks with MZ twins, though) and that was when the questioning was particularly intense.
There was an NPR story about transgender 6yos on the radio sometime in the last week, and THAT sparked a lot of conversation. Especially because the examples given for why these particular kids felt not-at-home in their bodies (boys who liked to play with Barbies, liked to try on dresses, only had friends who are girls) are all behaviors we've encouraged as normal parts of human behavior for endlessly interesting people, no matter what their sex. I had to be upfront: I don't know why some boys like to try on dresses but still know that they are boys, and other boys feel like they should have been girls. It's okay to be confused, as long as you know we feel good about exactly who you are and want you to feel the same.
Posted by: Jody at May 16, 2008 9:46:22 AM
When you figure that out, let me know. I'm still trying to figure out when my 7 year old is mature enough to handle seeing pictures of himself in the NICU, the size of a chicken leg, with tubes and wires coming out of every orifice. When I do, do I also tell him the doctors kept telling me throughout my pregnancy that I wasn't going to get a real live take-home baby out of the deal? Do I tell him that I didn't buy any baby items or even think of a name until he was a week and a half old?
That was no fairy tale pregnancy, but at least we got the happily ever after. For now, that's the only part my little guy needs to know. :)
I'm curious to hear what everyone has to say in regards to your post. Maybe it will help me decide how to handle this, as well.
Posted by: Dani at May 16, 2008 9:49:46 AM
Like most sticky wickets, I'd guess "need to know basis" would work here... as in, don't lie, but only disclose as much as the sproglette needs to know at any given age. While not infertile, I'll be facing vaguely similar issues regarding J.Q.'s families... he's got two of 'em, both of which were cobbled together before he was even potty-trained. The origins of this arrangement are sordid and nasty on all sides (like a shot of Pergonal to the eyeball!), but the outcome has thus far been wonderful. I don't plan on meteing out ANY info on the horrible 'til the kiddo's college-aged or older. We have a hard enough time comprehending the complexities of this shit as grown-ups. What makes us think grammar-school kids will be able to wrap their squishy little brains around it?
Posted by: Jul at May 16, 2008 9:50:09 AM
I've been reading this blog for a few months- started at the beginning and now wait with bated breath for new posts. I've never commented, as I have no experience with ART, but found your blog after my miscarriage.
I comment today, though, to say to those who are hesistant to tell their kids- if I were an ART kid, I would feel so loved and wanted after hearing my story. My mommy and daddy wanted me so much, and loved me so completely before I was even conceived, that they went through hell to get me- thousands of dollars, pain, anxiety... and I am the fulfillment of all of those years of hopes and dreams.
Might give the kid a big head, but, damn, doesn't he deserve it?
Posted by: LMH at May 16, 2008 9:54:48 AM
I must say that one advantage of having conceived through ART is that you can say "Your parents wanted you. They loved even the idea of you. It felt like a fucking miracle when they learned you were finally coming." It sure beats "I cried for 3 months when I learned I was pregnant with you."
Posted by: Leslie at May 16, 2008 10:16:53 AM
Our thoughts on disclosure have been evloving. We always planned to tell our kids about their anonymous egg donor because we think secrets are bad, and we're very open to meeting our donor one day, even to having a relationship with her if everyone wants it. Simple enough. But at first we thought it would be information kept in the family, because, hey, it's nobody's business but ours. Then it dawned on us that asking our sons to be selective about who they tell would make them feel they had something to be ashamed of. So that means the genie is completely out of the bottle, and while that's totally okay with us, it does raise more questions: Should we be proactive as parents and talk about it with their teachers when they get to school? What about our new friends in our new town? Or should we leave it to our sons to share the information or not? One day perhaps in school they'll be asked to write an autobiography and our family history will be "outed" so to speak. Maybe that's an okay way for relative strangers to learn, I don't know.
Perhaps I'm overthinking all of this, but someone has to do it, right? I don't think adoption really provides a good template, because as LK points out they will run into people who will judge us.
Posted by: Margaret at May 16, 2008 10:22:01 AM
(sorry, this has been on my mind lately. It's going to be a book)
I, personally, believe that the more openness and truthfullness you can bring to a situation like this, the better off everyone will be.
I believe that procreation is an ultimately selfish instinct, no matter how a person participates, that creates these wonderful little creatures who are entitled to their own stories, in full, independent of our opinion. They are also entitled to feel however they want to about it. We cannot, as parents, control how our kids will see their conception or upbringing, but what we can do for kids is give them the information on an age-appropriate level so that it never comes out of left field and smacks them down, and then to periodically reach out with help or ideas to make sure they know that they aren't alone or judged, without pushing our opinions or feelings onto the kid. Easy, right?
My husband and I have talked about donor eggs, in vague terms, and there is a loss in knowing that a future child may not be biologically mine, but biologically my husband's. There is a loss for the child because one half of its genetic makeup will not be reflected in the immediate family. There is a difference there, that is different than, say, a liking for a certain kind of ice cream.
Ignoring that difference or pretending it doesn't exist or thinking that with enough love the kid will never feel out of place, I think these are instinctive things we want to do to protect that ultimately harm, because at the end of the day the truth is the same. It doesn't go away if we don't talk about it, and reflected shame is easy to create.
I know that, for me, the lack of genetic connection is a small price to pay for another child. I know that in my happy, perfect world, it would be small price to pay for a child to be a part of our family. However, expecting children to be grateful merely for being born is rediculous, and the loss that I consider so neglegable may be huge for a child born of egg donation.
The mistake is not treating that difference as if it has value and the loss doesn't matter. If my child finds it a small loss and doesn't worry about their biological mother, that is fine. If they find it a very difficult loss and need to work through feelings of being outside or different and help to find some self-acceptance, then that is fine, too.
It is hard to be inclusive and yet also respecting differences. I can see how a parent would waver from one to the other, "I acknowledge your difference! You are not different! I acknowledge your difference! You are not different!"
Both of those sentiments are true and false, and I can understand how a person born in these circumstances would perhaps feel that they don't fit in, but that they aren't allowed to tell anyone about it.
For us, the birth of a child is a miracle. To a child, birth is something that happened. They don't remember the tears, the overwhelming emotion. Most importantly, they are not responsible for maintaining that joy.
I'm not a believer that love is enough.
At the end of the day I think that, as parents, all we can do is tell them what we know and then release our ownership of their reactions or feelings, whether those are mild or strong.
Posted by: Krissy Poopyhands at May 16, 2008 10:25:45 AM
I am very open about our girls being the result of IVF. I am among the oldest of the cousins and feel a responsibility to sing it from the rooftops - "fertility declines rapidly after 35 - and we're not that fertile a bunch." I was shocked at the number of aunts and uncles who shyly "confessed" the help they had needed building their family (lots of clomid kids and a few IUI's) and my mother's confession of physical anomolies that she was assured would prevent conception (3 no help!). So, my girls will know their stories - I suspect they will not even be able to recall when or how they found out that they are IVF children - it's such a small part of the story they want to hear - "your sister picked your name" "you looked just like your dad and had so much dark hair - people mistook you for a boy" "NaNa Earlyn was the first to come and hold you"
Posted by: Katherine at May 16, 2008 10:30:18 AM
I like LK's explanation that "perhaps children mainly want to know their own unique story" and how they began.
My husband is intensely embarassed by the fact his mom and dad conceived him in the chicken coop because they were living with a dozen other relatives at the time and there was no other place to "do it."
I don't think he's worried that they may have used a donor (Grade A fresh) chicken egg (sorry, bad joke), but his real discomfort comes from feeling he was conceived just out of horny lust and not true love.
I say this because kids really need to grow up feeling their parents really wanted to have them no matter what and that however it was done it was done out of love. I think no one will feel that better than an ART kid.
Posted by: Geeks In Rome at May 16, 2008 10:35:46 AM
This is pertitant to me -- I have a 3 yo via donor sperm (my husband is infertile). I am an adoptee myself and have a strong opinion that the fact that she is not biologically related to my husband and his family should be something she "always knows" and not something she finds out someday.
I always knew that I was adopted and to me it seemed like the normal way that babies got to their parents.
The problem is that we haven't told many people about this, including some family members, mostly because I didn't feel it was my place to talk about my husband's sperm issues.
Now my daughter is at an age where she'll tell anyone who will listen that "I lived in mommy's tummy and drank from her boobs" so I really dont want to bring up the donor issue just yet. But I feel like if I wait much longer she may feel more negatively about it.
Posted by: Michelle at May 16, 2008 10:37:35 AM
All of our children will know that we needed IVF to conceive them. The children we conceived with help of an egg donor will never be told. It's a secret my husband and I will take to the grave because disclosure will do more harm than good -- and it might make these children feel like second-class citizens to our biological child.
We know of one Mom who told her boy/girl twins they were conceived with the help of an egg donor. What did she get for her full disclosure? Now that these kids are teenagers, everytime they have a fight with her they scream, "You're not our real mother!" Charming.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 16, 2008 10:57:07 AM
My six year old daughter started to get curious about how one of her two moms could have carried a baby in her tummy, as someone at school had told her it takes a man and a woman to have a baby. I told her - somewhat brilliantly, I thought - that it takes a man part and a woman part to make a baby. The doctor, I explained, helped us with the man part. A few days later, after apparently mulling over my inspired explanation, my daughter exclaims (loudly, in public, of course), "Ohhh Mommy, NOW I get it! Your doctor is a man so he gave you his man part to make a baby!"
I think I may try more direct language the next time she asks!!
Posted by: Cindy at May 16, 2008 11:11:57 AM
We have twin boys from ART. They will always just *know*... it is something we talk openly about and it doesn't bother me in the least. I have pictures on their bedroom wall of them when they were 5 days old, 100 cell blasts. They are odd, and look like modern art, but I love that we have those "early pictures" - it is silly, but it will be a statement to how they were conceived and where they came from. A lab.
Posted by: Charlise at May 16, 2008 11:13:59 AM
Great post and great comments. This is something I've thought about a lot, and am thinking about again as we go into our first DI cycle. We plan to tell our children the truth about their conception right from the beginning, adding in details as they get old enough to understand and ask questions. For me, it's really important not to have secrets, and that's a big part of the reason we chose an open ID donor, too - so that our kids will be able to find out more about the donor and possibly contact or meet him when they're old enough. I do agree that kids want to hear their own stories and I think we owe it to them to tell them their stories in ways they can understand. One of the things I've struggled with lately is about how much to tell other people, and also how much I've already told other people. As we get closer to actually trying to get pregnant, I'm thinking more and more about the child that will hopefully come to us and what she might want when she's old enough. This information about how we will conceive is now not just about us - it's about our future child or children. So I'm feeling a need to pull back a little bit and not tell people quite so much.
Posted by: annacyclopedia at May 16, 2008 11:20:58 AM
Jeez, Julie, now you are actually requiring me to THINK. I have no profound thoughts on the issue. Your best friend, Oprah, had children whose mothers used donor sperm for various reasons on her show. It drove me crazy because they all seemed to be so full of angst. "I don't know who I am." etc. These kids actually pissed me off because I think society almost expects these kids to feel this way. I'm adopted and hell, I know who I am. I'm me. I've never cared to know much about my birth family. My husband is sterile and we had to use donor sperm to have the last two kids (first kid was from a previous relationship and dh adopted him). I would like to talk to my sons about their conception because I don't want them to find out from someone else, and my entire family knows. My husband doesn't feel they need to know at all. I don't want them to feel the reason we hid their conception from them is because it is a bad thing. I am hoping my husband will get over his own insecurities one day. His biggest fear is that our boys won't love him as much anymore.
Posted by: Sheri at May 16, 2008 11:37:39 AM
First, Krissy Poopyhands rocks and reading her comment just made me want to cry!
I'm a big believer in truth, and since my older kids have now been brought along to the RE's office a couple of times and to the ultrasound clinic several times---they know a lot. The 11 year old had the "talk" a few years ago, and I've since explained pretty explicitly about how reproductive tech works.
They know about my miscarriages and we've talked about how they feel and how I feel, as well as the fact that I have been very open with the general public about my struggle.
I want my kids to know it all, not just because it is their story and their family's story, but because I think it teaches them compassion towards others who have suffered loss and infertility. They will meet people in life who have struggled and I want them to be kind and to be aware of the issue.
Interesting twist LK, when my youngest was in kindergarten, I had a 16 week miscarriage during the first week of school. He knew I had been pregnant because I was so obviously showing and so he told his teacher and his new friends that he was sad because the baby died.
Some other little kids piped up and said that their brothers and sisters had died and told him not to be too sad, it would all be okay.
The teacher later told me it was really amazing how supportive they were of each other. And as we got to know the other parents in the class, we discovered that more then half of them had gone through high risk deliveries, infertility, miscarriages, etc...
I've begun to realize that even though not everyone does IVF or uses third party gametes, normal average reproduction is rare these days. We are the new normal.
And as that continues, it will be harder for others to judge.
Posted by: Aurelia at May 16, 2008 11:40:06 AM
Anonymous, I just read your comment, and based on the freakouts so far with my 11 year old who is just hitting puberty, and my friends who are raising teens--they would have found some other way to dig in the knife if not that.
Being as cruel as possible is a teenage specialty and if they didn't know, they would've said, "I wish you weren't my mother" or "I bet I'm adopted" or whatever....
Right now in 5 states, DNA testing kits are available over the counter, and gene tests are regularly done for a myriad of diseases and conditions. In Grade 7 biology class they discuss things like how blue eyes and cleft chins are passed down, and how recessive genes work. What will you do when your kid figures it out during a school assignment and realizes you've lied?
I know you think it can be kept a secret, but really, in the age of DNA, it can't, and kids who are lied to are much more likely to feel betrayed.
Just my opinion.
Posted by: Aurelia at May 16, 2008 11:58:14 AM
Although these questions don't apply to me directly I have an opinion anyhow, which you can take or leave as you see fit. I am a middle school Language Arts teacher and I read the private writing journals of 11, 12, and 13 year olds as part of my writing curriculum. I love middle school kids and it shows, so they trust me. Over the years some of my students have poured their hearts out to me over various topics, from minor troubles to shocking revelations.
Trust me, middle school kids are fascinated with themselves and are both bewildered and curious about sex. As a result, lots of my students ponder questions surrounding conception and biological origins, as they pertain to both their own individual story and the world in general. I promise you that your children *will* wonder about their conception when they hit middle school, whether it was in the family chicken coop or a petri dish. They probably won't tell you, but their brains will think about it all the same.
Which is all a long-winded way of saying: I strongly suggest you tell your kids the truth about their conception before they are old enough to wonder if you don't trust them to handle it (by the time they are 10, perhaps?) Obviously, what exact age is appropriate depends on individual personalities and particular family dynamics. However, withholding crucial pieces of information about genetic identity is likely to be seen as a betrayal by most middle school students (again, this is only my opinion, but it's pretty well-informed).
Experience has taught me that the bond of trust between parents and their children is both fragile and yet also resilient. Kids and parents can forgive deep rifts and betrayals *IF* they can wrap their heads around why and how those betrayals occurred. The question for me is not "should you be honest," but rather "why would you lie?" The follow up question is, "How will your children evaluate that rationale if/when they discover you have lied to them?"
Posted by: Sophie at May 16, 2008 12:20:09 PM
My six month old is the result of donor embryo. My 5 year old was adopted from Russia when he was six months old.
His adoption has always been part of the 5 year olds "story." Although, to be honest, I don't think he actually gets it yet, and I'm fairly certain he still doesn't understand that he didn't grow in my belly like his little brother did.
I'm finding it harder to know what to tell my six month old and when. I know we absolutely will tell him as I think secrets like this can never be good. I'm just not sure yet when and how we will tell him.
Posted by: Sparklykatt at May 16, 2008 12:41:23 PM
Somehow, someday my son will know the story of his conception--if only so that he never takes his own fertility for granted.
I do worry that somehow he will feel different or other--especially since my daughter was conceived without ART--so there will be some delicate phrasing here and there.
But they will both know.
Posted by: BrooklynGirl at May 16, 2008 12:47:09 PM
My daughter is only 3 so the subject of conception hasn't come up yet, but she's seen my C-section scar and I've told her that's how she came out of my body (but not why that way). When she's older, I don't have any issue with explaining to my daughter that she was conceived through IVF or that my current pregnancy is the result of a FET (an extra from her retrieval).
Posted by: Pamela at May 16, 2008 12:48:55 PM
I think children conceived through donor gametes absolutely ought to be told. They deserve to know their genetic history. (Plus, the way DNA research is advancing, don't you just know that your 7-year old is going to come at you with a Q-tip one day demanding a cheek swab because his science class is doing DNA analysis that week?)
My son is two and I tell him his "story" once a week or so; mostly, he wanders off and loses interest about 30 seconds into it, but I figure some of it must be sinking in. I don't know how he will feel about his conception, all I can do is be honest and give him as much information as he asks for.
Posted by: Karen at May 16, 2008 12:57:47 PM
Our seven-year-old daughter knows that our doctor helped us make her and she knows that's why I'm seeing him again. That said, she hasn't asked for the details. What she knows right now is that you need to have sex to have a baby (I'm laughing on the inside at this info that I gave her so far). She does not know what sex is but she can spell it (she won't say the word - recently she said something to me about sex and she would only spell it!) and she knows that it's something grownups do. Over the years we have conversations in passing and I provide her with a little more information about the birds and the bees as appropriate.
Someday I will tell her our version of her story. She was conceived from an IUI at 1:30 PM on 2/6/2000 in Dr. So&So's office. Mommy and Daddy wanted her so badly we worked really hard to have her.
Posted by: at May 16, 2008 1:10:24 PM
We used DE to conceive our son as well. We are going to tell him that we needed 'help' to conceive him (I have already started to tell him in an age-appropriate way). We are trying to make it no big deal. We will teach him that it is a 'private' matter (so he doesn't blab it to the clerk at WalMart), but we don't want it to be a secret.
Secrets are scary. Secrets are something you are ashamed of. Secrets always come out (I figure DNA tests will be part of high school biology classes soon).
Posted by: sheilah at May 16, 2008 1:21:08 PM
I think that by the time they hit reproductive age, especially married and considering a family, it's important for them to know the details because of how it could affect their timing and choices for starting a family. You don't (yet :) have a girl, but knowing your history might make her consider things like freezing some eggs in her 20s for possible later use if she had the resources to do so. Or just starting a family sooner rather than later. It's family medical history and it's important to know and share when possible. I had the opposite family history -- basically all the biologically related women conceived the 25+ kids immediately. That was useful knowledge to me as a teen in terms of making it clear to me that I need to take preventing an unwanted pregnancy. Although I'd think with a history of ART you'd want to make it clear to teens that assistance with their conception is *not* protection against them getting knocked up/knocking someone up.
So ultimately I don't think that kids need to know every detail of their conception early on unless you want to tell them, but I do think it's good for them to know by the time they are of reproductive age.
Posted by: anonymous at May 16, 2008 1:22:35 PM
Er, missed a word, sorry -- I meant 'take preventing an unwanted pregnancy _seriously_.
Posted by: anonymous at May 16, 2008 1:24:43 PM
When my husband and I first started down the road of what I know think of as the teeny baby fertility treatments (no pun intended) like IUI, he really struggled with it. When pressed he admitted that he was having a hard time with that being our baby story - the idea of having to explain to our child someday that we were, in fact, in separate rooms when he or she was conceived.
I asked him what, exactly, the story would be if we had conceived the old fashioned way..."well honey, there was this one night when mommy and daddy had a lot of wine and there was nothing good on TV...".
Posted by: LMM at May 16, 2008 1:39:19 PM
I just went back and read the comments and have an addendum. Sheri mentioned the DI kids on Oprah who are complaining they 'don't know who they are', etc. What I feel about this is that these kids are the squeaky wheel. You hear about them because they are talking about it. You don't hear about the tens of thousands of kids who have no problem with how they were conceived; who know their parents went through hell and back because they wanted children so much to do whatever it took.
Posted by: sheilah at May 16, 2008 1:46:05 PM
I can't imagine not telling. The 3.5 year struggle to conceive the fetus I am carrying is now just so much a part of the kid's identity in my mind that I just can't imagine not sharing the details when our little miracle gets old enough to ask question. Actually, considering this is the child of two science nerds, it might be tough not to get carried away in a discussion of human embryology. Will the kindergarden teacher look at me funny if junior starts discussing the merits of assisted hatching?
Posted by: Elizabeth at May 16, 2008 2:01:57 PM
This post really strikes me. (Rare commenter, avid reader.) My 18 month old son was conceived with IVF, using PGD to rule out a genetic fatal disease my husband and I both carry. However, it was a disease we were unaware we even harbored deep in our dna until the happy fog of our first pregnancy was shattered with the news via prenatal testing. We painfully chose to terminate that pregnancy. So, I want to be honest with him when the time comes, but I wonder how he'll feel knowing that he was brought into this world specifically because he had an older brother that we chose not to subject to a fatal disease. My mother always said that if we were old enough to ask questions, we were old enough to know the truth... but then, she didn't have to worry about the same kinds of truths.
Emme Bea
Posted by: Emme Bea at May 16, 2008 2:40:38 PM
interesting thoughts. my dad was adopted and i hate the fact that i might have family out there that i don't know about.
Posted by: feener at May 16, 2008 2:42:50 PM
I haven't figured this one out, but I'm glad to read this thread (and I'll read the WP article later). It's going to come up, because the first picture in the baby/pregnancy book is a picture of the embryos...one of which turned into my now 4 year old.
Posted by: magpie at May 16, 2008 2:57:13 PM
I think it's important for them to know. If anything, it's part of their medical history. We just don't know if IVF conceived children will have any effects from it later in life. I doubt, and hope, there won't be, but I can't know that and can't keep it from them.
While IVF was a huge part of my history, it's also the beginning of their history, and I'll make sure they know it.
Posted by: Jenn at May 16, 2008 3:46:55 PM
To turn the question around a bit (and sorry if someone else has done this already, I haven't read all the comments), how would you feel about being told you were conceived through IVF? And do you think that would have been an extra comfort in dealing with your own infertility issues?
I personally think it can only feel extra special to a child to know that he was so desperately wanted that his parents went to these great lengths in order to have him. When you hear stats saying that 50% of pregnancies in the US are unplanned, it makes you feel pretty special to know you were not only intended, but actively (painfully) sought after.
Posted by: Marcy at May 16, 2008 4:16:36 PM
"I personally think it can only feel extra special to a child to know that he was so desperately wanted that his parents went to these great lengths in order to have him."
Or, alternately, that his conception was the second-class choice of his parent's loss of the "ideal" child, their biological child.
Please understand, I am not saying that that's true. What I'm cautioning against, again, is trying to predict or own your child's response. Children have no imput into their conception or adoption. Expect gratitude or understanding of what you went through as parents may set you up for a nasty surprise later. You aren't doing ART for the child, because that baby doesn't exist yet, you are doing it for you.
Normal and the way everyone does procreation, ART or non-ART alike, but don't pretend that it's a gift you're bestowing. Don't look at the child who is living and say, "look at what I suffered for you!" because you didn't. You suffered for you.
They may not feel grateful or impressed at all, just like the kids not adopted or conceived with ART are not expected to go around being grateful that their parents conceived. Your struggle, while absolutely valid, is not your child's struggle. They don't have to own it or understand it.
Kids will feel how they feel. Giving them the space to feel how they feel and the information they can use to help themselves may make all the difference.
Posted by: Krissy Poopyhands at May 16, 2008 5:00:20 PM
Polly, conceived via IVF after all sorts of shennanigans, is our miracle baby. Jack , who pretty much conceived himself nearly four months after Polly was born, is our what-the-hell baby. I've thought a lot about how to handle the telling of the disparity in how they were conceived - one intentional, one not, both equally adored.
I am going to put my faith in that love, in that they will know how happy we are that they are alive, that they are our children. The rest...they will feel what they feel, and I only hope that they will feel up to talking to me and their dad about it.
And I want to marry Krissy Poopyhands.
Posted by: Menita at May 16, 2008 5:22:05 PM
Before me, my mom had five miscarriages. I was adopted and my parents didn't tell me until I was thirteen. Whenever I asked why I couldn't have a brother or sister or why there weren't any pictures of mom pregnant with me they would always find a way to evade the question.
They meant well, and they told me that they originally wanted to tell me when I was younger but couldn't find a way to do it. But it was difficult for me to find out when I was older and I had a hard time adjusting to the idea. And I don't think it would have gotten easier to find out if they had waited until I was an adult. IVF or donor eggs may be a slightly different situation, but I still think that it's probably better if kids know earlier, so they don't grow up with notions that it's unusual or weird- which is how I felt at thirteen, because I didn't even know anybody who was adopted.
Posted by: Claire at May 16, 2008 5:45:46 PM
This is for Menita.
It took my parents 5 years to conceive my oldest brother. Then my second brother came along 18 months later. Then 13 months later my mom found out she was carrying me.
My father went out and got a vasectomy. I was NOT planned. I am glad abortions were not legal back then (although my mother probably wouldn't have terminated anyway).
My parents adored me. I was their youngest; the only girl. I knew how much they loved me. They never let me forget it. Your children won't either.
Believe me.
Posted by: sheilah at May 16, 2008 6:05:09 PM
Without personally dealing with this myself, I think it makes the most sense to be upfront with your child, but in an age-appropriate way. It's not BAD that he/she came about in this way or that, it's just different. Everybody's different, and everybody's story is different and this is just part of his/her story.
Posted by: Angela at May 16, 2008 6:34:53 PM
Well... I can't imagine having a child the traditional way and telling him/her that they were lovingly made one night in a shower at a friends house during a fun filled tequila intoxicating frat party. I really wouldn't like to know the details of my own conception.
But if using ART or anything like that, if the child asked what it was or the conversation came up I'd would acknowledge that is how he/she came to be and just leave it at that. Not a big deal, really... honesty is a good thing.
Posted by: D at May 16, 2008 8:07:05 PM
We're going the matter-of-fact tell all-route, with, as they grow, gentle warnings about with whom they might want to share that info.
And Sheilah, as a woman who's lived her life not knowing her biological father, to assert that those DI Oprah kids are the squeaky wheel is a bit unkind. The "loss" or lack of a biological connection is real and hurts and no amount of love can erase it. What good parenting and love can do however is to help a child handle it better...it certainly doesn't preclude happiness or fulfillment.
Posted by: Day at May 16, 2008 8:18:11 PM
My kids are the homegrown kind, but I still had to come up with an explanation for the oldest when the second and third came along, and I have hang-ups talking about such things even with my HUSBAND for crying out loud, so it was HORRIBLE. I got some great advice from my OBGYN of all people, though--offer age-appropriate explanations, use familiar vocabulary only instead of dazing them with a bazillion new terms at once, and only answer the question they ASKED, with the minimum of information possible to be honest. DO NOT VOLUNTEER INFORMATION. And follow up your summation with a redirection... So that's what I did, and when the three-and-a-half-year-old asked how the new baby would get OUT of my tummy I said that I would go to the hospital and Dr. OBGYN would HELP me get the baby out, AND THEN WE WOULD ALL GET PRESENTS!
AND IT WORKED!!!
And lo, there was great rejoicing in my house that night, because the kid did NOT ask for specifics. When that day comes or when the child approaches reproductive age then I will give specifics, and name names, even, but MY oldest kid had a tendency to fall in love with new words and sing-song them everywhere right now, and I did NOT want to take "VAGINA!" to the grocery store.
Posted by: Eliza at May 16, 2008 8:29:41 PM
Teaching our child about her conception (specifically) and the mechanics of reproduction (in general), that's the EASY part. But... Do we tell her not to share that information, thus implying that it's shameful? Or do we throw caution to the wind, knowing she'll be telling everyone she meets? From my pro-life family members who asked me how many babies (embryos) we created and then killed before this one "took", to acquaintances implying that we were selfish for not wanting to adopt, to near-total strangers feeling free to speculate what physical causes led to our infertility (DH is secretly gay! That's got to be it!), teaching her what to make of the judgemental crap that we dealt with when we were going through IVF - THAT'S the hard part.
Posted by: Jean at May 16, 2008 8:46:27 PM
I totally sympathize with Anonymous and the desire not to have the child born with the donor egg feel different. But I think that reality will not allow her to fulfill that desire to take the info to the grave. DNA info is and will be everywhere.
When my husband's grandfather was in his forties, there was a medical emergency with his father. All the kids and their mom had blood drawn as a result. And that is how Grandpa found out that he had a different blood type - one not possible to derive from his mother and father's blood types. Given that he was born way before medical intervention would have been possible, the only 'donor' possibility had obviously been kept secret for a reason. Fun for all! And not the conclusion I think Anonymous would want her children to come to after her death.
As a parent of a child with a genetic defect I have been asked many times to sketch out the family's genetic history/defects. Our particular defect has a high likelihood of repeating, and if I found out that another family member had that info and just didn't feel like sharing, thus condemning my child to the life he is leaving - well, lets just say if my head didn't explode, someone else's would soon after. And I don't even want to imagine my anger if I ultimately found out that the 'normal' genetic history I had been sketching out was one that my mother secretly knew didn't actually belong to me. What the hell would give her the right to determine my reproductive choices through her omission?
So, yes, I know that trying to explain the reality of some children from donor eggs and some children from your own eggs may make you want to throw up, but that is YOUR problem. Not theirs. And part of getting to be the mommy is having to do really hard things for the ultimate good of your children, however they came to you.
Posted by: Cris at May 16, 2008 10:15:24 PM
I think LK is right- each child is interested in their special story more than in getting your full medical file on ART. And just by looking at the number of blogs and posters by women who are dealing with ART one way or another you can tell that, really, it's not that novel an issue anymore.
I think the real trick is to find a way to tell your child the story of how s/he came to be without making it too emotionally charged and making that sucker what I call "Furby-proof".
I honor whatever choices anyone makes, but I think I'd prefer to tell my child about how "Daddy and Mommy tried and tried" rather than distress a 5 year old with the extra bits about miscarriages and Mommy's sadness. That can come later, if the kid asks, but they want to hear THEIR story, and the miscarriages are MY journey, not theirs.
And "furby-proof" means that I'm careful to phrase the story in a way that can be parroted back to my boss at the dinner table without making one of us lose our appetite or want to slide under the table with embarrassment.
I don't think it's something that a teacher or child's friend or any other adult "needs" or even wants to know (if they do, and it's necessary for them to know they'll ask) and as long as I'm honest, cover the basic facts and keep the story short and sweet (and repeatable!) I think that's all any kid under the age of 12 needs to know.
Although, while I don't have any patience with adult adoptees or gamete donor children who moan that they "Don't know who they are", after working in the health field for several years, I would respectfully request that any donor I used provide me with a family health history. That's information with growing importance these days.
Posted by: Susan at May 17, 2008 2:11:54 AM
Coming from a person with NO personal history of anything other than run of the mill conception, I can only imagine that something kept hidden would be found out later on. And if it was secret, well, I would assume that my parents were embarrassed about it, to some extent. Or that I came about in a way that they aren't as proud of.
I would hope, had I been adopted or conceived by IVF or other treatments, that my parents would be very open from early on. I would think that going through the incredible amounts of heartache and struggles to have me would mean that I was wanted MORE, perhaps, than the average child...
Posted by: tracey at May 17, 2008 8:18:29 AM
This is for Aurelia.
My middle child looks like the mirror image of her father. If she brings home a DNA kit in the 7th grade, he can be the one to participate.
Everyone knows (or should know) what's best for their family. We happened to have extended family that would have never let our children forget that they were not blood-related. We also subscribe to the adage, "What one doesn't know can't hurt anyone."
I think you're confusing our privacy with shame -- which couldn't be further from the truth. I love all my children equally and could give a shit about their DNA. It's everyone else in this opinionated, asshat world that has the potential to hurt my children that makes me crazy -- and this is the type of information that certainly could, when wielded in the wrong hands (e.g., "well-meaning" relatives, obnoxious friends).
For what it's worth -- I'll take "I hate you!" over "You're not my real mother" any day.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 17, 2008 9:16:30 AM
I told my mother recently that I worry one day one of my DE sons will say "you're not my real mother!" I could tell she was trying not to laugh when she said, "But you know you said exactly that to me, many many times. And you believed it."
I sympathize with Anonymous regarding the extended family issue, I really do. I have a cast of very interesting characters in my own extended family, so I hesitate to write this because I don't want to offend or even judge, just offer food for thought.
It sounds to me like you're choosing the lesser of two evils and that it feels like the right thing to do for your family. But I have to ask, if the extended family someday behaves the way you fear they will, wouldn't that be a good time to cut them off? I realize that's easier said than done. But I have relatives - three sisters - who don't speak to each other because of stupider reasons. Money, basically, and not so much of it. One of them died recently, having been estranged from her two sisters for the last 20 years. As tragic as that seems, I can easily imagine saying goodbye and never looking back if a relative in any way were to hurt my children.
Finally, even without DNA testing, I believe children know when there's a secret being kept from them. They might not ever know exactly what, but all the same they know something's up.
Posted by: Margaret at May 17, 2008 3:05:32 PM
Ach...I think this is a minefield. I have a very strong belief that a child needs to know, but I am not directly involved in needing to do the informing (so...whatever...grain of salt). My sister-in-law, 30 years old, mother of a one-year-old, etc--was conceived with donor sperm (back in THE DAY). Her parents are of Eastern European Jewish descent, and their first child died young of a disease specific to that population. So they used donor sperm with subsequent children. And they had two lovely children who are alive in adulthood today because of this wonderful choice that they made. My sister-in-law and her brother do not know that their father is not their biological father, yet I do, and my mother does, and my husband does, and even my brother knows. My sister-in-law's mother felt she needed to share, and now we all know but my SIL doesn't. We hate this, but feel it is her parents' responsibility to tell her, not ours.
Want to know why I think she needs this info? Because she does already know something is up, as a previous commenter noted could happen. And her relationships with her parents are hard. They are divorced now, her father remarried with a biological child of his own who looks just like him. And, her son has had health concerns, which maybe she isn't concerned enough about because "no one in her family" has real problems in those areas. I wish she knew that she has holes in her family's medical history. And she herself was recently diagnosed with a chronic disease...the list goes on. Medical history is important. It helps doctors know what to look out for, and it helps individuals make informed decisions about their lives and the lives of those who depend upon them.
I see my SIL going through the fog that any child of donor DNA might go through. Only she is an adult now, and when her parents finally decide to tell her (which my brother will likely force them to do), it will be very, very difficult. She will likely feel betrayed and lied to, not only by her parents but by my brother and the rest of us as well. And for a decision that they made out of love and a desire for family--noble and beautiful motivations.
It didn't have to be this way. They did nothing wrong in their efforts to build a family, but now it is very messy. I know she won't be mad that they used donor sperm, but she will likely be furious that they kept it from her. Especially after the fertility challenges she faced before conceiving my nephew, and the various health challenges that she and he continue to face.
Is the mess and drama and confusion and hurt worth it? Why not just be open and honest--this is a beautiful thing, the creation of family--why hide it?
Posted by: Molly at May 17, 2008 5:32:02 PM
I just plan on forking over my blog url when my (as yet to be conceived) child starts asking questions. heh
I can't imagine not telling my kid her/his own personal conception story. I am single & so far it has been over 3+ years in the making- If I ever have a pregnancy that sticks I will tell all.
Posted by: Calliope at May 17, 2008 5:48:57 PM
I really appreciate this conversation. Thanks, Julie, for bringing up the topic.
Our older child is from my eggs, our younger child from donor eggs. Though I love them equally, I can't help but wonder if our younger child will see herself, as Krissy Poopyhands said, as second-choice to our naturally-conceived genetic child. My husband and I used DE to produce the family WE wanted -- not for the "benefit" of our daughter. I hate that our actions may become a burden on her.
If I thought we could get away with it, I wouldn't tell our daughter about DE -- ignorance is bliss. But like many other posters, I worry that she'll find out one way or another. Our donor had the same blood type I have and similar ethnic background, even a similar family health history, yet still, it seems unlikely that our daughter won't discover the truth eventually.
Complicating matters is the fact that we haven't told anyone, including our families, that we used DE. I know that my mother, for instance, would never accept a child that wasn't related by blood (sad but true). If we tell our daughter about DE when she is young and she talks about it in front of family it will be a bad, bad scene. If we don't tell her until she is older, she may feel betrayed and resent us. Our current plan is to tell her that we needed a doctor's help to have her while she's young (family knows we used IVF) and tell her the donor part as nonchanlantly as possible when she's a bit older (maybe around 7). One woman on another board suggested that when we tell our children, we do so "with a twinkle in our eyes". Perhaps if I act like this is no big deal, she'll think so too. Our daughter is one year old; that's as much of a plan as we have, so far. I hope I'm brave enough to go through with it.
Posted by: Lynn at May 17, 2008 7:13:04 PM
I applaud the Anonymous poster for returning to explain her reasons for not talking with her children about the role donor eggs have played in building their family. She didn't have to do that, and I appreciate hearing a more nuanced view of this issue from her perspective. Also, I respectfully agree that people should be allowed to decide what's best for their individual families.
However, I also believe that after a certain point, parents are not the only members of that family whose voices and opinions should count in deciding "what's best for their family." Again, drawing on my experiences working with middle schoolers, I can tell you that most teens want to be allowed a participatory role in the family decisions that directly affect them. Stating that you will never, ever tell your children that they were conceived with donor eggs strikes me as an unreasonable attempt to control access to crucial information about their identity. "What's best" for everyone in your family may not always be what's most comfortable for you. Keeping your kids in the dark about difficult truths doesn't make them less true. However, it does keep your children from deciding for themselves how they feel about those truths.
Drawing on my original comment, I have to wonder how Anonymous' teenage or adult children might react to her rationale that she hid the truth of their conception in an attempt to protect them from unenlightened relatives and friends. That explanation certainly will work for many years. Once they pass the age that they could judge who might react badly to the idea of donor eggs for themselves, though, that will begin to sound more and more like an excuse.
Worrying that they'll scream, "You're not my mother" in a fit of rage as teenagers may seem like a comforting defense for now, but those future teenage or adult children would probably disagree. "You mean you didn't tell me because you thought I'd use the information to hurt you?" Honestly, I'd worry more about what they may say about trust and betrayal if they discover that you've lied to them.
But again, Anonymous is right. It *is* her family and she *does* get to make certain decisions, no matter what I or anyone else thinks. However, since Julie asked and this is the Internet: I believe parents should consider what may be best for *all* the members of her family in the long run, not just themselves, and not just for the next few years.
Posted by: Sophie at May 17, 2008 10:17:10 PM
I'm very into honesty and openness. My almost 7-year-old DD has known the facts of life for a couple of years. She also knows that my friend and her partner are both mommies of their kids, and that they had to borrow some sperm from a nice man because only sperms and eggs together make babies. She also remembers! me shooting up Gonal-F to conceive her brother through IVF, even though she was only 2 at the time! I guess it made a big impact on her. So even if I didn't believe in telling him about IVF, she would.
Posted by: Carol at May 17, 2008 10:30:40 PM
Being a single mom by choice, for me there is no option but to tell my son how he was conceived. As far as I'm concerned the alternative is to let him believe that he has a father out there somewhere who doesn't want him.
I don't want him to ever remember being told he was conceived through IUI. I've been telling him since he was born the story... mommy really wanted a baby but didn't have a daddy for him, how the doctor told mommy where to find a special man that would help ladies like mommy to have babies, mommy picked the one she thought would be the best one to help and when the time was perfect the doctor helped to put the baby in mommy's tummy.
More than enough information for an 8 month old. I totally expect he will announce how he was conceived to random strangers but I never want him to think it's something he should be ashamed of... I'm certainly not.
Posted by: Tanya at May 17, 2008 10:38:19 PM
My pregnancy is the result of FET. Might my kid hold a grudge for not being our first choice embryo? Or possibly use it as an excuse for bad grades? I can hear it now: "I got a 'D' in math. Too bad the higher quality embryo was ectopic, ma."
I think I'll roll with the stork thing.
Posted by: Tobacco Brunette at May 17, 2008 10:55:05 PM
Well, "Where did I come from?" has not been our toughest question ever. Actually, "Where did my sister go after she died?" was more challenging - and yet - it's not so hard just to be honest... and vague.
A LOT of people ask how we'll tell our children about being a surrogate. The general assumption is that the kids will think Mommy and Daddy could've or might just decide to give THEM away to a fertility challenged couple. I have to say, it really wasn't that hard. We told them there was this couple that loved each other very much and wanted a family but that they could not grow children. We were going to help them and the doctors would take their children and put them in my belly to grow so that when they were born, this couple would get to be parents. Oh, and while most people that fall in love are a woman and a man, sometimes it doesn't work out like that. This happens to be 2 men. That was all it took. They haven't asked any more and don't really seem to care. They've met the guys and we talk about them. Maybe when I'm actually pregnant more questions will come. We'll see.
Posted by: Robyn at May 18, 2008 8:29:15 AM
Well, I was going to propose to Krissy Poopyhands, but I see Menita beat me to it. Darn. If things don't work out between the two of you...
Honestly, it seems to me that however a child is conceived and joins one's family, and whatever the relationships between that child's parents, the message is simply this -- 1. I, your parent, adore you for the individual whom you are, and thus, 2. I am inordinately and forever grateful that I took the path that brought you into my life (no matter how hard, or indeed, if applicable in the case of those conceived the old-fashioned way, how unintentional, it was). -- repeat message for as many parents as the child has (my stepchildren have 4, 2 bio and 2 steps, and my son has 2, both bio). Because, um, isn't this simply the (wonderful) truth? Honestly, it works as well for the one of my stepkids who knows (oh, yes) that their conception occurred earlier than the (bio/social) parents had planned (on starting their family) due to a sporting event and some, ah, alcohol consumption as it does for my stepkids themselves in how I relate to them, by whom I feel inordinately blessed, and as I expect it to for my son when he is old enough to understand the time and effort we devoted to IVF in order to conceive him.
I had a friend who lost his father early, though not phenomenally so (i.e. when the son was in his late teens, not, say, 2) and who always resented the fact that his father had had him so late in his (the dad's life). This made no sense to me, as my friend wouldn't have existed, had his dad not done so...some other person would have been conceived. Could he wish his dad had lived longer, or been younger when he was conceived? Sure. Did it make sense to wish his dad hadn't had him so late? Not to me...
Finally, I, too, respect Anon. for being willing to defend what, here at least, is a minority position. That said, in terms of the distinction between a secret and shame, to me if someone kept a secret from me that I think I have a right or a need to know -- and I certainly feel that way about my genetic origins -- that, to me, would mean they were ashamed of that secret, that is, that it was a shameful matter -- this as distinct from someone keeping something secret that is none of my business. This isn't to say that I don't recognize the difficulty of telling one's children of their roots without having one's extended family find out, but still, I have to say that I personally would want to know and be upset (understatement) if I found out -- and I cannot imagine, honestly, that today's kids won't; I personally suspect that within our lifetimes, getting our DNA mapped will be as routine a part of our medical care as a Pap smear.
Posted by: Alex at May 18, 2008 9:07:53 AM
Anonymous (me!) is back and posting once more for follow-up on some subsequent comments.
This is an intensely personal issue -- and, seemingly like assholes, everyone has one. Not everyone can look into the face of my gorgeous 3 year old and see what I see . . . an ability to devastate her at some pont by providing her with information she MAY NEVER NEED TO KNOW.
No genetic link to my family? No loss . . . we're not smart, good-looking or mercenary. She probably hit the genetic lotto by NOT being a part of this den of wolves. But can I expect her one day to feel the same way as I do -- or will she be yet another child searching until the end of her days for that "biological" link that holds the key to her identity? The majority of the commenters seem to believe that it's her right to know and explore that issue. I'm sorry, but life is hard enough as it is -- why the HELL would I compromise this child's well-being and happiness when, I repeat, there MAY NEVER BE A NEED TO KNOW.
Another thing -- none of you know me. I'm not like a Julie, a Julia, a Tertia . . . I choose NOT to put my life out there. I comment every so often (on other people's blogs) on issues that touch me, but I have not made the circumstances of my life known. Julie is never going to be able to keep the DE aspect of her second son's birth from his knowledge; that's her choice and I imagine it sits well with her or she couldn't keep her blog going for this many years. (And, I am grateful for that, because she is smart, funny, brave and I look forward to every post.) But, again, no one knows me, my family, my children . . . you don's and can't know what's best for everyone's wellbeing. Plus, there is no reason to suspect that my little house of cards will cave eventually. (Please don't suggest there may be medical issues at some future point; I obviously KNOW that -- and all bets are off if anything that nefarious arises in the future.)
For those of you who wrote that secrets are bad -- I don't disagree. But not every secret gets exposed. That's something I have to take to my grave . . . you, however, can slide effortlessly to your own without compromise . . .
Posted by: Anonymous at May 18, 2008 10:09:41 AM
"What one doesn't know can't hurt anyone." The experience of many of older adoptees, who found out via medical emergencies or the accidental discovery of a document would very strongly disagree with that adage. Also, I'm sure almost everyone hear can tell stories of things they did not know in a timely, honest manner that hurt them very much indeed.
The field of genetics as it relates to physical health is growing rapidly. The idea that a parent could hope to keep the lack of a genetic leak secret for a child's life is, and I don't mean this unkindly, wishful thinking.
Luckily, there is no need to sit a toddler down and explain it all at once. As with everything else in children's lives, what matters is age appropriate information, which can be very vague indeed. When a child is older and understands the difference between public information and private information, and their questions become more direct, a parent can be more specific.
Posted by: Kathleen at May 18, 2008 1:59:22 PM
I plan on telling my daughters about their conception - how the first one was definitely wanted - but not expected on the first gonal-f cycle. That one was supposed to be the 'practice to see how you respond' cycle. :)
The youngest will be told that her parents didn't even need to be in the same room when she was conceived. And yes, that means we did have sex exactly one time - to conceive the oldest :)
I've also kept bills of their births (and conception costs) in their baby book - just in case I get the "Mom, everyone else has a car" whine. I've got back up proof that they've already spent that $.
Posted by: Toni at May 18, 2008 4:22:28 PM
I just had a similar talk with my daughters. We have a genetic disorder(Ehler-Danlos)that has killed 4 out of the 5 siblings in my mom's family, including my mom. Inheritance is autosomal dominant so chances are 50% that any child would have inherited this disease. Both girls are affected, and were the first diagnosed in the family, however, all the children in our family were all ready born and no prenatal testing for this type of EDS is yet available. Men have much less issue but the disease is a collegian defect which is greatly affected by estrogen and so of course women are more vulnerable to the disease. The birth control pill helps combat these effects and also helps with PCOS of which of my youngest daughter suffers.
Which leads me to the conversations to which I have just had with my two girls. My oldest is 25 and about to be married and thinking of starting a family. She and her boyfriend have dated for 7 years and lived together for 3 so I told her that all things considered, now is better than later. Does that sound crazy? Her dad told her that 35 was a good age. But I look at my poor health, my age; the fact that they both have good jobs,savings,currently good health, excellent health insurance with 3 cycles of IVF covered, which in Texas is a rare thing. We talked about the using donor eggs, only implanting male embryos to decrease the severity of the disease, etc or doing whatever they were comfortable with.
The other conversation I had with my younger daughter was about her desire not to have children until she is older, say 35. She is now 21. She is also the one with PCOS. We talked about freezing her eggs, something we discussed with my older daughter as well, in the hopes that genetic testing will become available in the future. With both issues facing her now she knows that at 35 her chances of having a pregnancy and a healthy child are very slim, yet for her that genetic connection is very important so we are making plans for harvesting and freezing her 21 year old eggs. While it is not a foolproof plan she is aware donor eggs may be her only option if she is able to get pregnant at age 35
Both girls have decided that whatever option they choose that they will be upfront with their children from the beginning. As their mom it is a choice that I will support. Perhaps it is too easy to say that hypothetically, one degree removed we will be upfront about where our grandchildren come from. But for me the genetic legacy I gave my daughters, abet, unknowingly, has robbed them of a long life, ability to reproduce the "old fashioned uncomplicated way" and the good health that we should all have and be able to take for granted. So I will be their cheerleader and plan to be on the lookout for anyone who has anything hurtful or negative to say about my yet to be born grandbabies!
Posted by: anon. at May 18, 2008 4:34:05 PM
With this issue, I've tried to separate which would be my secrets, and which would by those of the children. And I've also seriously thought about what to tell them and when, and whom else to tell. One's genetic history can be of great importance, and while it might not be something I'd make public, when the child is old enough, it's something I think they'd have the right to know - not just because there are so many ways in which they could find out anyway. When she's old enough, my daughter will learn of my numerous miscarriages because there could also be an effect on her reproductive health. But there are a lot of things I won't be sharing under my real name.
Posted by: Molly-Claire at May 18, 2008 7:45:54 PM
I have no children, but I do have a nephew who is stunningly gorgeous and one of the 'easiest' babies I've ever encountered--sleeps through the night at 3 months, eats like a horse, never sick, never really even unhappy. The problem that my sister is dealing with is only similar in that she was just barely 21 when he was conceived, not married to the father, and was seriously considering abortion. She is thrilled to pieces that she had him, but she's even now starting to think about what she'll tell him as a teenager: how to explain cautioning against unplanned pregnancy and really driving home how such a thing can potentially divert the rest of your life, without making it sound like her beautiful son was unwanted? Every conception has a story, and its own individual pains and glories.
I guess my point is that there isn't an easy answer, and I don't have any insight into your situation aside from trying to be as candid as possible. But "I love you and I can't imagine my life without you, exactly the way you are" is where my sister plans to start when her turn to explain comes around, and that's as good a place as any.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 18, 2008 9:34:45 PM
I'm on the side of full disclosure, absolutely, although I understand why privacy can seem attractive. I have a friend who has a chromosomal translocation - the same sort of thing as Julia of Here be Hippogriffs has to deal with, although in her case it's her husband who has it. It was diagnosed after my friend had three or four miscarriages. She now has two healthy daughters who both carry a balanced translocation, as does she, so will need to be well aware of their own miscarriage risks before they are old enough to conceive.
My friend also has two siblings, one of which is adopted. When her translocation was discovered, all her biological relatives had to be tested to see who else shared it; they tested her father, found he was the source, and then tracked the relatives down his side of the family tree to work out who else was involved. Her sister also shares the translocation and has had similar issues. Her brother, the adopted sibling, of course does not; fortunately everyone already knew that he was adopted. Can you imagine how traumatic it would have been for him to discover that he was adopted only as a result of DNA investigation, which would otherwise surely have been the case?
I have another friend who had a daughter easily, then tragically lost a son at birth and had an emergency hysterectomy at the same time. She went on to have a second son through surrogacy with her husband's sperm. Both children know exactly what happened; they mention the sibling who died, they meet the surrogate once or twice a year and see her other children, and whenever it comes up in conversation they give the little boy an age-appropriate account of how he was conceived. If anyone makes an ignorant remark about the situation, they educate them. To my mind, that is a less risky situation in the long run than having something of that scale come out unexpectedly. But all any of us can do is what seems right for our own families.
Posted by: Alison S at May 19, 2008 8:21:36 AM
I have no intention of telling my children how they were conceived. I agree that when a third party is involved, it is a different question - and I'd lean towards honesty, I suppose. But I just needed chemical assistance to get rolling with the first one - the second time was pure accident (having been unable to conceive, we were just not accustomed to even considering the need for birth control!).
There are some pieces of information that one simply doesn't need. Children want to know their unique story, yes - but even then, they only want parts of it. Or more accurately, only want to feel that they have a history and are loved. I have a WHOLE lot of experience with this particular issue, and let me tell you, there is a happy medium to walk.
In my mind, my kids just don't need to know about clomid resistance, FSH, HGH injections, and getting a vaginal ultrasound just about daily for a week - followed by some carefully timed "passion." UGH. I don't really even want to think about it, it was just what we had to do. I may someday tell my children about the miscarriages, I may not. I'm going to play some of that by ear.
But my mother got knocked up with me in the back seat of a car, and my parents got married as a result. This is never, NEVER spoken in my family - but I'm not stupid, and I can do math. On the other hand, one of my sisters is aware that she was conceived in the kind of hotel where you can put quarters in the bed to make it vibrate. Neither of us has any interest in those details. Neither of us gives a damn. We are: the rest is circumstantial.
I suppose I may get flamed for this attitude, but the day that my kid comes to me looking for details regarding the sexual relations, or lack thereof, that resulted in their procreation - let's just say I'm not holding my breath.
I do plan to hammer into my daughter that she really may want to think about these things earlier rather than later, but I'm sure I don't need to. She's 7, and she said the other day "I'm not having kids, Mom. I want a career, and I don't think that I can do both the way I would want to." In short, I think that one is light years ahead of me, and will be doing some pretty careful planning without my input.
Posted by: Bad mommy at May 19, 2008 12:10:43 PM
Oh -- I forgot. I show my kids pictures of themselves in the NICU, and always have. They look a little scary to an adult, but to a small child with no frame of reference? Not such a big deal as one might think. I think that what they really want to see is the look on my face while I held them. Through all the tubes, through all the alarms - cradled against my chest. Someday it will mean different things than it does to them now, perhaps. But how one relates to the happy outcome is important, at least to me, rather than dwelling on the worry.
Posted by: Bad mommy at May 19, 2008 12:18:18 PM
I've thought about this a lot...as a lesbian who THOUGHT i would conceive a child using donor insem, then finding out i had POF, then deciding to adopt internationally. The only info on the birth parents: the BM was young, poor, illiterate, single (so they tell us...) and the BF "disappeared when he found out about the pregnancy". The biologic details of my daughter's conception are really not what i want to emphasize!! Yet someday she will ask and will need to know and i will tell her...
Ironically, when i was younger (much younger) and asked my rather conservative, prudish mother what she thought about me having a child by DI (without a male partner) and she said something like "it would give the child the idea men are only good for sperm donors" HUEH?? That got me thinking...what WOULD the kid think? Probably the kid would think what i told him/her...
But now the situation is, in my mind even MORE tricky. In this situation the biological father really IS just a sperm donor, and an unintentional one at that. I don't think i'll focus on him, just the BM and how loving it was for her to want her child to be raised in a home where she could have shoes and a bed and food and go to school so she made the ultimate sacrifice of giving us the privilage of raising her.
Hmmm...
Now, about the next child, in which i am planning to use a donated embryo and a surrogate (because a car wreck left me permanently unable to contemplate the notion of allowing a large fetus to take up residence in my body). That will be even more interesting! But at least all the parties were willing participants. Hmmm...
Great thoughts~
Posted by: at May 19, 2008 5:37:22 PM
My nephew is a result of a mixture of his father's sperm and donations from his uncle (not my husband) and his grandfather. His father had what was described to me as "lazy sperm." It was alive and it swam, but not very enthusiastically.
My nephew knows none of this. It would be too confusing to tell a three-year-old that his daddy may be his daddy or possibly his uncle is his daddy and he's actually his daddy's nephew or maybe he's his own uncle based on the fact that his grandfather is his father.
Sometimes too much information can be a bad thing.
When he was younger, my son liked to hear how he stood on his head for the entire time he lived inside my "tummy." I told him how I used to pat the back of his head as it nestled tucked up under my ribcage. I even like the medical sound for his upside-down position -- footling breech. Stories like that don't frighten or embarrass.
I feel bad for a little girl I know whose mothers insist she had no father. I wonder how she'll feel when she gets a little older and realizes that everyone is the result of a union between a man and a woman, whether the union happens in a laboratory or in a bedroom is immaterial.
They don't want to tell her about their decision to use a sperm donor, a gentleman who they tell everyone became a donor "to make beer money." It seems like a mean-spirited way to talk about the man who, when it comes down it brass tacks, is the father or their child.
Posted by: Gef the Talking Mongoose at May 19, 2008 6:55:16 PM
My nephew is a result of a mixture of his father's sperm and donations from his uncle (not my husband) and his grandfather. His father had what was described to me as "lazy sperm." It was alive and it swam, but not very enthusiastically.
My nephew knows none of this. It would be too confusing to tell a three-year-old that his daddy may be his daddy or possibly his uncle is his daddy and he's actually his daddy's nephew or maybe he's his own uncle based on the fact that his grandfather is his father.
Sometimes too much information can be a bad thing.
When he was younger, my son liked to hear how he stood on his head for the entire time he lived inside my "tummy." I told him how I used to pat the back of his head as it nestled tucked up under my ribcage. I even like the medical sound for his upside-down position -- footling breech. Stories like that don't frighten or embarrass.
I feel bad for a little girl I know whose mothers insist she had no father. I wonder how she'll feel when she gets a little older and realizes that everyone is the result of a union between a man and a woman, whether the union happens in a laboratory or in a bedroom is immaterial.
They don't want to tell her about their decision to use a sperm donor, a gentleman who they tell everyone became a donor "to make beer money." It seems like a mean-spirited way to talk about the man who, when it comes down it brass tacks, is the father or their child.
Posted by: Gef the Talking Mongoose at May 19, 2008 6:55:26 PM
dude. i wish i had the courage to send some of these types of posts (and literature i've read) to my aunt and uncle. they still haven't told their (now 12 year old daughter) that she came from donor eggs. i almost let the cat out of the bag (that i didn't know was closed) last year and got a private talking-to by my aunt. ugh. it never even occurred to me that it was a "secret". you should hear the lengthy explanation for this girls blond hair and blue eyes.
Posted by: juliag at May 19, 2008 10:04:35 PM
For those of you looking for help talking about donor eggs to your kids, we have been reading Caroline Nadel's book, "Mommy Was Your Tummy Big?" with our three year old. She loves the part where we say the doctor helped find a special lady - we shout out the donor's name, "Lisa"... I was amazed that our daughter immediately decided that this was her story and that it became her favorite book. I needed some help finding the right words for telling the story to a toddler and gosh, this has really helped.
The whole book is posted at http://www.carolinanadel.com/DonorEgg/index.html. So, you can take a look at it before buying it.
We have struggled with what to tell various members of our family. We started telling everyone and not putting any restrictions on who they told until my Mom decided to tell my step-sister who lives in our town and is part of my children's social group. My step-sister is completely incapable of discretion and has no sense of where and when you talk about different things. There is nothing like being at a party and having your drunken step-sister say, "Isn't it amazing that your daughter looks like her cousins when she isn't actually related to them at all?" in front of 20 people you've never seen before. While I feel a need to know the people who are given this information so that I can protect my children, I do have some discomfort with people knowing this much about me. It's not so much that I feel uncomfortable with our decisions, it's just that I was so tuckered out by the whole process and would like to just be for a bit.
Posted by: pica at May 20, 2008 7:29:38 AM
I understand the need to disclose conception details to children who were conceived with DE or DS. That said, no, we are not telling our two children that we did IVF. They are our bio kids and once I became pregnant, who cares how it happened. All pregnancies are miracles. Why muck it up with fodder.
Posted by: Lisabeth at May 20, 2008 10:04:49 AM
I have a long time before this topic comes up. However, honestly, unless she asks, I'm probaby not going to tell her. She is an iui baby done with my egg and my husband's sperm. We concieved her, end of story.
As she gets older and perhaps tries for children of her own, I will tell her. Again, if she asks.
Not once did I ever think of asking my parents or even think about it at all. I was born, their life became perfect. End of story.
Posted by: Heather at May 20, 2008 2:48:53 PM
To Gef the Talking Mongoose, I hate to pick on your choice of words because in general I agree with your post. I just wish you hadn't said that, brass tacks, the donor is the father of the child. I would feel very hurt if anyone suggested to me that my anonymous egg donor, who I love and respect if only in my imagination, is the mother of my children. She's meant the world to us and she always will, but she's not their mother.
Posted by: Margaret at May 20, 2008 4:22:53 PM
Our son is 3 and doesn't really grasp the concept of babies yet anyway, but we definitely plan on explaining that he was an IVF baby when he can understand what that means. Our whole family and all our friends know so we couldn't keep it from him if we tried. I don't really understand why you wouldn't want to tell your child - as has been said, it is proof right from the start of how wanted they were. The only reason I can think of not to tell is if you feel it's shameful for some reason, and we just don't see it that way. We needed IVF for physical problems, not because we have moral failings or something.
Posted by: Chelsea at May 24, 2008 2:23:41 PM
I'd like to contact the person the wrote the PIO Stupid Tricks, because I'd like to reprint it, with permission, in a RESOLVE publication.
please contact gotinago@cox.net
Posted by: Tina Nelson at Jun 3, 2008 11:49:06 PM
