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09/08/2009
The secret ingredient is pectin
Last night before dinner I told Charlie I'd made an exxxxxtra-delicious dessert and said that if he cooperated until the end of the meal, he could have some. Iiii know. I know everyone says not to use food as a reward, but I kind of think that might be bullshit. I am not so far divorced from my hard-wired rat-in-a-maze nature that I won't hustle for a piece of cheese, you know? And so it is with my older son.
Only he's been slow to catch on about dessert. I don't offer it frequently, and when I do there invariably dawns the moment when Charlie realizes that instead of the tower of sugary delights he's obviously been imagining, all I'm giving him is fruit. His stricken look of disbelief is equal parts tragic and ridiculous. But because I'm not totally heartless, I give him his choice of fruit. And although we always have applesauce and berries, it's not that easy to keep durian on hand, so I do expect some credit for that.
So last night's understanding was that he'd get dessert if he cooperated. Part of the deal was that he'd set the table without complaining. This is his nightly job and he knows it, although he never likes it; most evenings I ignore his muttering about it because it's fun to eavesdrop. Did you know he wants a robot? To set the table? And that when he is a man he will invent one? But right now he can't because he's not allowed to use wires or experiment with electricity? But when he's a man? Solder city, baby.
Last night, though, after a long day of This parade is boring (it was) and I don't feeeeel like it (me, neither) and Why do I have to wash my hands? (because you've been handling a decomposing badger) and You never let me photosynthesize (fine, try it, see if I care), my tolerance was low. I told him he'd need to do it without complaining, and reminded him that dessert was in the offing. No, it's not an obvious logical consequence, but then I'm not sure there is a direct, observable consequence of what boils down to thoughtcrime. When the questionable act involves making yourself unpleasant to be around, the eventual consequence is that people aren't going to want to go out of their way to do nice things for you; engineering an immediate, tangible demonstration of that fact seems to make as much sense as any other approach. Help me out here, if you're into logical consequences: what's the most productive response to a plain old crappy attitude?
Anyway, he eventually set the table, and with every utensil he placed, he issued another complaint. I reminded him three or four times, but by the time he'd gotten to the oyster fork I'd had enough. Without any more commentary, we sat down to dinner and ate. After picking at his food, Charlie looked up with an expectant look on his face and said, "I'm ready for that exxxxxtra-delicious dessert!" And the very earth shifted beneath his unsteady feet when I regretfully told him that, alas, he had forfeited his dessert earlier.
That didn't surprise me; indeed, I'd counted on it. Here is what he said, alternately howling and weeping:
I am so very angry about this! I really wanted that exxxxxxtra-delicious dessert! You should give it to me! I am mad that I won't get some! [Pause.] Are you going to give me some?
And when that didn't work,
Please! Please give me some dessert! I really, really want some! Please! You must! It's required! Why are you not doing what I say?
And finally,
I know you really love me and care about my feelings. If you want to cheer me up, the very best way to do it is to give me some dessert!
Which is kind of awesome, really. And totally ass-hilarious.
We moved straight into bath and bedtime, no quarter given, no dessert consumed. He eventually felt better. I felt fantastic. I was really proud of him. It's progress. He hadn't lashed out. He hadn't lost his mind. And he hadn't even used ugly words about it. He didn't threaten bad behavior; he tried to motivate me in a positive way by appealing to my good nature. To me, that suggests that when we do the same for him, he notices, and maybe — possibly — agrees that that's the tactic most likely to produce the desired result.
Not that it worked, of course. And in fact that's probably a good thing. I think he'd have been good and pissed had he realized that the exxxxxtra-delicious dessert I'd made was, in the end, still more fruit. Baked. With granola. But fruit.
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I almost never comment here, but this one had me rolling. Kids are born lawyers, I tell ya.
Fruit baked with granola is NOT fruit, it's pie. Pie that you can TOTALLY eat for breakfast.
if you're into logical consequences: what's the most productive response to a plain old crappy attitude?
My logical response is that I don't want to be around the person, and if at all possible I tell them that and then choose not to be around them for a while.
And if it's my kid they might well be forced to leave the room for a while because they are being a drag to be around and filling the room with yucky vibe. If this means they can't do a chore they were supposed to do, then they can deal with whatever consequences there are for that as well.
This also I hope teaches them, eventually, to remove their own self when they're in a bad mood. If I can, I also talk about this when it's happening to me, i.e. "I feel really grumpy so I'm going in my room for a while so I don't get grumpy all over everyone."
That is so funny- my mom used to try that with apple crisp. Which would have worked if she hadn't fed it to us for breakfast for heaven knows how long. :)
This is hilarious. And hysterical. AND funny.
It reminds me of something my now-six-year-old (oh are you going to have a good time when Charlie is six!!) said to me when he was three.
I'd expressed my displeasure over some rotten act he'd committed. He looked up at me, and said very quietly: "I know you're disappointed, Mommy, but please calm down."
Oh that attitude can really bring a whole household down, can't it? I try the go-to-your-room-I-don't-want-to-be-around-you-right-now technique but it usually results in me hearing thumps and wailing about how unfair life is and how hurt someone's feelings are. Eventually I go up there and tell him he can come out if he'll stop the god awful wailing and move on. Ignoring is such a great parental technique but it is oh so hard to carry out. I feel you.
hey, it turns out that I am "d," above.
I was once hiding out on the stairs and one kid was trying to get my attention. His brother stopped him: "You have to leave Mommy alone! She's having a time-out. She'll come down when she's not so grumpy."
"Playful Parenting" by Cohen. Changed my life. I don't always employ the logic, but when I do, life is far more pleasant.
When the complaining gets too much for me I tell my girl that it appears she is so tired that it is time for nap/bed.
Charlie is a bright little lawyer, full of linguistic brilliance. Why am I not surprised?
OMG! The BEST: Solder City, baby!
I about choked on my lunch, that was so funny!!!!!!!!!!!!
Second best: oyster fork.
At our house, people with bad attitudes are sometimes provided with extra opportunities to practice doing their work cheerfully (i.e., you grouse about setting the table, you're expected to clear as well; you grouse about clearing, you help to load the dishwasher; repeat as needed). I also offer to trade jobs with the reluctant ones sometimes, because it helps to see that everybody is working to get dinner on the table.
I sometimes sing to the tune of the Wisconsin fight song: "Prompt and cheerful, prompt and cheerful, that's the way to be!" This is so annoying that my children will feign good attitudes just to avoid it. There's nothing wrong with a silent rictus and a speedy exit, I always say. ;-)
"It's required" had me howling. Your kid is awesome, bad attitude and all. We're going through the same over here with girlfriend (they're like a week or so apart) and let's jut say I'll be reading the comments on this one avidly.
When he breaks out with something like the quoted comments that is just so damn FUNNY, do you keep a straight face? We try to, but DAMN it's hard.
"Everyone feels cranky sometimes, but you're not allowed to dump it all over the rest of us. If you can't control your bad attitude, you probably need more sleep. Early bedtime tonight, kiddo."
Damn. Deleted intro b/c sounded dumb, now sound condescending. Sheesh.
Logical consequence for a crappy attitude: your mama's a bitch. And, as the saying around here goes, "Ain't Mama happy, ain't nobody happy."
I love this. As it happens, I just this morning instituted a similar course of action with my kids. Mine are older than yours, but I informed them this morning that, from here on in, there will be consequences for complaining, sighing heavily, stomping, eye-rolling, etc., even if in the end they do what I ask. They seemed rather stunned, especially since I wasn't asking anything of them at the moment. They didn't fuss much about it, but then I guess they were probably afraid of the consequences. HA! I rule the world.
Man...did you steal my kid?
Mine has the same sour attitude at times. Other times I feel she is putting up with way more than she should. When she's up? She's WAAAY up, but when she's down? *sigh*
Mine's latest reflex is to immediately declare that, "from now on I'll quit being rude!" Almost like she's expecting a warning punishment of sorts. "Drop the attitude!" "No!" "No popsicle for you!" "Wait...Attitude dropped!" "Okay...nevermind. Here's your popsicle."
Yet it NEVER works out that way. I'm not sure who told her to try this technique but it's making her very angry that it's not working.
Our logical consequence for a grouchy attitude is also alone time. OK, it's really a time out, but I don't like them so choose to call it something else. We just tell her that people don't like to be around someone who is cranky/whining/hitting, so she'll need to sit by herself until she can be more cheerful.
Now, I have an 8 year old who grumbles and grouses like he's actually an old crotchety man (mental note, let's bring back the word "crotchety"), about several of his chores.
Sometimes, I ignore him, which seems to be wisest.
Sometimes, I remind him that life is full of doing things that you don't want to do and when he grows up, he certainly does not need to have cats (he has to scoop cat poo).
Sometimes, I commiserate, but this is generally a bad idea, because then he REALLY wants like sympathy cards and a parade in his honor.
What seems to work right now is to remind him that while he doesn't have to like it, complaining about it does absolutely no good. His semi-logical now-8-year-old brain seems to accept this.
Otherwise, my honest advice is to ignore it. So long as he's doing the chore, he doesn't have to be overjoyed by it.
*sighs*
Kids, man. Kids.
This is hilarious, and reminded me so much of my daughter. Sometimes people reading my blog refuse to believe she really talks like that. No really - some five-year-olds do.
Too funny!
"...what's the most productive response to a plain old crappy attitude?" In my case, chocolate, so clearly you're on the right path!
Wait until he starts catching on to the "smell" of dessert being baked and then is on his best behavior... that will be quite nice, but might mean you are tempted to make dessert more frequently!
You never let me photosynthesize (fine, try it, see if I care)---This just slayed me.
At our house, we too, are unreasonable about the restriction of electricity and wire. (Fear struck me when my son triumphantly announced : I plug in! Uh, no you dont!)
Hmmm...so you let your kid play with a decomposing badger, but you won't give him a damn chocolate chip cookie? :-)
That is impressive. And I have to tell you that the last few months before the Wolvog turned 5 were our worst. He was so angry about everything. My sister once told me that boys are hard for 2 1/2, 4 1/2, etc. and girls are hard for 1 1/2, 3 1/2, 5 1/2 and that has been our experience. A week or two after the Wolvog turned 5, it was like someone flipped a switch.
Whenever it tells me "Your comment has been posted. Post another comment" I feel like I should follow instructions.
Thoughtcrime - HA! Watchout, Charlie, Big Mother is listening!!
Yeah, I'm with d. When my 5yo is just downright unpleasant to be around, I tell him so (nicely) and send him to a different room. This isn't actually as easy as it sounds, since I have 3 kids and a small apartment, but generally speaking it works--usually I dispatch him to my bedroom with Lego.
"it's not that easy to keep durian on hand." you're hilarious.
First kid - bribe with fruit and granola at two.
Second kid - bribe with pie & ice cream at 18 months.
Third kid - chocolate bars at an age I won't admit to, even on the internet.
Anything for peace in our time. Anything.
To be honest, five was the dawn of a new age and whenever our kids hit it, it was awesome. Tantrums ended, and a new level of discussion. It wasn't perfect. But it was great.
Anyway, after Charlie invents that table-setting robot, tell him to market it. We'll buy it in a heartbeat.
It makes me really proud when parents stick by their words. And calmly, at that. :)
Yay, Julie! And Yay, Charlie!
"What's the most productive response to a plain old crappy attitude?"
Welllll... I know I have a crappy attitude sometimes, and it gets to be kind of a habit, so what I do is remind myself that *I* am actually happier if I keep a cheerful attitude, not just everybody around me. That seems to work best. I don't know how you explain that to a five-year-old, though.
And yes, I have been reading your blog for a long time, but I never commented! Hello there!
So I think denying him desert at the end of dinner because he slacked on his job at dinner's start is totally logical.
The only good advice I have ever gotten about denying kids something as a discipline is that you should make sure that what you chose doesn't actually punish you.
Like denying them the thirty minutes of tv that saves your sanity at the end of the day is more of a punishment for you.
Other than that, all bets are off.
Oh and by the way my daughter told me that if she were a princess she would have servants and nights to clean her plate away after dinner. And even though I agreed and I told her that her being a princess would mean I was a queen and wouldn't have to cook, so we'd both win, she didn't care.
Oh such slave drivers are we.
The function of Charlie's whining behavior seems to be to get your (albeit negative) attention. Therefore the logical consequence is no attention for whining and increased attention for positive/neutral attitude.
I wouldn't remove him from the room since he also is probably trying to avoid setting the table, but a one-time "Charlie, when you whine at me it makes me not want to talk to you. When you're ready to use a pleasant voice, I will be happy to talk with you." Have lots of loud, happy conversation with Ben, etc. "Oh Ben, I am so happy when you smile, it makes me want to be with you even more". If Charlie is neutral or pleasant, jump all over that.
So, so, funny.
What is pectin, exactly??
Julie, you are an amazing mother. Please tell me that you will still be writing when Charlie is 12, because I need to know that you might falter a little bit at the older ages. You have done beautifully with teaching him to respect and articulate feelings. I just feel as if my mothering is becoming more and more knee-jerk in all the wrong ways, but I will think of you and try harder to say and do things in the ways that are healthier for my kids. My girls are 12, 9, and 6 now and I'm 35 weeks with our fourth! daughter. Yes, that would be female puberty x 4 to be endured. As the first round is reducing me to very quietly muttering, "bitch" toward my precious firstborn baby girl, I can only begin to imagine how things will deteriorate...I think of you often, Julie.
Jesus. I have to break out the chocolate for cooperation. He gets fruit with his meals because he won't eat vegetables, and he needs fiber somehow.
"Solder city, baby."
Solder city. Like "Sadr City." In Iraq. It took me a minute to get it, but now I know: You are the funniest writer ever. Seriously.
You had me at "decomposing badger"
I thought the model for rewarding behavior was to set this incredibly low bar at the beginning, basically handing over the food pellet any time the rat gets near the lever. And then once they're really into this game, you start asking for more. And then when it gets challenging, and they're not getting the reward every time, those early triumphs are working for you. Because you're only accomplishing something with the positive reinforcement, right? When they don't make the grade, and so don't get the reward, you might not have lost any ground, but you're not gaining either?
Like dolphin trainers? Using the bucket of fish to your best advantage, since a cattle prod would short out in the pool?
Lol I agree with one of the above comments- "Fruit baked with granola is NOT fruit, it's pie. Pie that you can TOTALLY eat for breakfast." - I always liked fruit pie as a kid, I'd consider that eexxxtra delicious dessert.
Hysterical! What a vocabulary Charlie has! I think he may be hanging out with Patrick Hippogriff a little too much.
Delightful post, delightful Charlie. You and Paul are very lucky but somehow I think it might occasionally get lost in the everyday of parenting a very smart child.
Dude,
You're totally doing it right. (A) It removes Charlie's bad attitude from the room, which de-escalates things right there. (B) It saves Charlie from the backhand you'd give him if it were legal and safe and not a bad thing to do to small children when they deliberately try your patience with nonsense.
It's kind of amazing, though, how they seem to know how to push buttons SO EARLY.
lol...I can't imagine my son doing that towards me. www.bigjobsboard.com
Durian is most certainly not easy to come by, and probably even MORE "not easy" to get your child to eat. Just sayin'.
Although they DO have these handy durian-flavored fruit roll-up things in Thailand, now :oP That might just get a kid to plug their nose and enjoy!
Me: "Isabel, if you don't clean your room right now I will drop you on your head."
Isabel: ".......You really will?"
Me: "Try me."
Works every time.
Ohhhh my. I've got nothing on productive responses to crappy attitudes, but I feel compelled to mention . . . durian? Tastes like the decomposing badger Charlie was playing with. If it had then been rolled in poo. And it doesn't just taste bad for a second; it's something you continue to urp up for freakin' HOURS. You want him to eat his vegetables? Threaten him with one of those durian roll-ups, that'll teach him good! However, it will also make your house carry the stench of said pooey dead badger, so that may be a last resort.
"You must! It's required!"
I'm eating this up. My life sucks so badly that this blog IS my dessert.