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09/21/2009
To say hello and goodbye
Carolyn and Sean Savage, parents of three, were trying to have a fourth child through IVF.
Their first child was conceived and delivered without difficulty. Their second child was born at 30 weeks after Carolyn developed HELLP syndrome.
It took ten more years, two early miscarriages, and IVF to conceive their third child. Carolyn developed HELLP again and delivered at 32 weeks.
The couple got good news in February, when they learned that Carolyn was pregnant again after an FET — and bad news in the next breath, when they were notified by their clinic that the wrong embryos had been transferred. Carolyn was carrying someone else's child.
The couple could either terminate the pregnancy, or they could complete it and turn over the baby to his biological parents. Citing their religious beliefs, they decided to continue; in the next two weeks, Carolyn will deliver the baby, take "a moment to say hello and goodbye," and go home without a child.
Because of Carolyn's medical situation, her doctor has advised her not to attempt a future pregnancy. The Savages plan to use their remaining embryos with a gestational carrier.
My friend T. called me this morning and told me about the story. She'd caught it on the Today Show, giving it only half her attention during her morning routine. So what I heard from her was incomplete, just that a couple with three children had been given the wrong embryos and had decided to continue the pregnancy. I thought, I think I could probably do that for another infertile couple. But I thought it only in the most theoretical of ways, as in, If I were she..., not Being who I am. Not knowing that Carolyn and I had a little bit in common.
And then I read about her history of HELLP and preterm delivery and knew I could not, in fact, do what she's done. Forget theory. I could not risk my health and my last shot at pregnancy to give someone else a child, much less someone who hadn't even been trying at the time.
Do you think you could?
I know I couldn't. I'm awed and humbled and I wish the Savages comfort at what must be an impossible moment in their lives.
Posted by Julie at 02:22 PM in Jane, you ignorant slut | Permalink
Comments (129)
I heard the promo for this story this morning and snickered over my favorite old "implant" versus "transfered" mistake, but I didn't actually listen to the story....Now I wish I had.
No, I don't think I could do this. I am similarly awed and humbled that they can.
Posted by: After Words at Sep 21, 2009 2:51:44 PM
I have to admit that I couldn't term the pregnancy, whether or not I had a history of preterm labor. For ME, I also admit (almost ashamedly), I might even fight whatever legalalities there were and keep the resulting baby.
Posted by: DD at Sep 21, 2009 2:57:32 PM
I don't think I could terminate under those circumstances.
If there's one thing infertility has taught me, though, it's that you never know what you'll do until you have to. Or at least that I never know. So I really cannot say. My heart goes out to the Savages, to the parents of the child Carolyn is carrying, and to all the Savages' children, both actual and (merely) desired.
Posted by: Alexicographer at Sep 21, 2009 3:09:11 PM
I could not do what she is doing either. I'm with DD on this one, I would most likely fight to keep the resulting child.
Posted by: Heather at Sep 21, 2009 3:16:18 PM
Yes, I think I could. As myself and as her. But then again I have a BT like Julia, so for sanity's sake I sort of disconnect myself from the pregnancy experience (para 8, gravida 1). In fact I've looked into surrogacy (in hopes of earning money for an adoption), but it's not legal in my state.
Both couples are certainly in my thoughts. What a tough situation. The Savages seem like incredible people.
Posted by: Lisa at Sep 21, 2009 3:17:09 PM
No way could I have done that. So, kudos to the Savages.
As for my morning routine, you'd only get half the story, too, if you were putting on your mascara while simultaneously spinning a recalcitrant 8 year old still in bed, a tantrumming 12 year old (yes, people, she still does that!), and a husband with a missing wallet like plates on sticks.
It's a miracle any of us ever leaves the house.
Posted by: T. at Sep 21, 2009 3:21:33 PM
All I can think of is how totally pissed off at my clinic I would be if that happened. I saw the teaser for the program and all I could think of was if someone was impregnated with my frozen embryos right now, what would I do? I don't want anymore children, but I wouldn't want anyone raising a full sibling of my children either. And the poor woman carrying this baby could die from this pregnancy. It's just horrible, any which way you slice it. I think since she is acting as this couple's surrogate she should be paid amply for her time, and it should be the clinic that ponies up. At the very least.
Posted by: Chickenpig at Sep 21, 2009 3:26:40 PM
I know this wasn't your point, but I wonder if "terminate or give up baby" could really be enforced? The mistake was the clinics, not the Savages.
Posted by: Stephanie at Sep 21, 2009 3:32:22 PM
I could, but I'd want to know the couple whose child I was carrying first. I'd want to know that they were relatively sane and competent. I'd do this the same way as would when facing some horrible test results that indicated a child with fatal defects; a child born only to live for about three months with organs outside the body, unable to enclose them. I could do it because it means the possibility of success for someone else.
Posted by: Irukandji at Sep 21, 2009 3:32:44 PM
Adding here that the possibility in the second case would be coming from essentially donating the child's body for research upon death.
Posted by: Irukandji at Sep 21, 2009 3:34:04 PM
No. Not just no, hell no.
My pregnancy was a disaster. The bedrest had financial implications that are going to hurt us for years. My boss now regards me as damaged, a liability rather than an asset. From a selfish standpoint, no, I wouldn't. I don't even consider my OWN desire for more children (which is virtually nonexistant, but you know what I mean) a good enough reason to take on that kind of risk.
What if I died? What would happen to the girls? Would I put them at risk of motherlessness for somebody else? No.
There's something else, though. I recently read the records from TBFPP and found out why they induced labor and how disturbingly close we were to losing Fitzhume in the week prior to delivery.
Would I risk everything on a fairly poor chance for a living child that I would have to give up? Not on your life.
Posted by: akeeyu at Sep 21, 2009 3:43:48 PM
Yikes. Well, lets look for the sunshine.... a couple gets a child that they may not have otherwise had... and... um... a nice hefty lawsuit against the clinic will more then likely cover the entire cost of going with surrogacy for the Savages. But yah, Yikes.
Posted by: mama2beans at Sep 21, 2009 3:44:37 PM
Yeah, I stupidly said to T. on the phone, "And now the Savages on the hook for the cost of the surrogacy." And T. said, in the kind of voice you'd use with a very slow, much loved, but reeeeeeally slow child, "Julie? I'm pretty sure they're not paying for jack at this point."
Posted by: Julie at Sep 21, 2009 3:50:01 PM
Considering that I lost a good friend to HELLP syndrome last December, there is no way in hell I would risk leaving my children motherless to bring this pregnancy to term.
It's one thing to cite your religious beliefs in theory...it's another to watch your friend's husband wander around a funeral home wondering why his wife is dead at 34. I could not risk that outcome.
Posted by: Lawmommy at Sep 21, 2009 4:06:46 PM
what a hella-big mistake...For the love, if there are ANY people in their job that need to be careful, good lord!
Yes - I would do it. I almost died due to childbirth twice. Would do it again in a heartbeat.
I would like to say I could give the child up, but I do not know that I actually could do it. I don't know how the legalese around this would work - if you see the baby come out of me, doesn't it count as mine? I think it could be a toss if it went to court simply because I don't know if the law covers someone accidentally carrying someone else's baby? Don't you get on the birth certificate based on who's body the baby comes out of?
Oh and I wouldn't be paying a dime, either way.
Posted by: VHMPrincess at Sep 21, 2009 4:08:13 PM
Absolutely not. No. Never. I can say that with some (very limited) experience, because I have a friend who has been a surrogate and is contemplating doing so again, for the family for whom she bore the first child. Her pregnancies are relatively uncomplicated (as are mine) but the physical risk of pregnancy and birth is undeniable. I would not put my family at risk of being widowed and motherless (word, @akeeyu). FWIW, my friend earned a LOT of money for her surrogacy. A LOT. (@Lisa - PLENTY to pay for an adoption. I mean, WOW $40K).
But then I think of the Savages, and of the sum that would satisfy me if I were in their situation ... and there is, quite simply, no price for how angry, betrayed and bereft I would feel. I'm in awe of their generosity of spirit and their (seeming) peace. I would like to think well enough of myself to hope I would get there, too, but my knee-jerk is utter, blinding RAGE for them ... I just don't know if I could be as zen as they seem.
I hope for a lasting peace for them.
Posted by: Bitts at Sep 21, 2009 4:17:20 PM
So, does anyone know (I mean, know, not just have an opinion on how things should be) what the case would be like if they did try to keep the baby? Is there any precedent? This isn't the same as a non-donor surrogate breaking her contract, but that's the closest thing I can think of. What would happen?
Posted by: L at Sep 21, 2009 4:19:41 PM
About termination, no, it's not that easy, and even if you knew you had to do it to save your own life, it really is shit. And I get why she wouldn't. And I get why she would do it.
But to those of you thinking you'd keep the baby yourself--please try to remember this feeling the next time you read a post somewhere about how a teenage or single mom any woman should just give up her baby to some potential adoptive parents. It's not that easy either. In fact, it's kind of shit too. I get why some people want to keep a baby they are carrying, and I get why some people to decide to give it up. Again, the shittiest choice in the world.
I have no idea what I would do. If I was the genetic mother of the embryo that got accidentally implanted in Mrs.Savage, I'm not sure I could do this; but I think it would be nice if she offered to be the surrogate for the Savages, and then they exchange babies, and then decide to live near each other and keep in contact forever, so the kids can have a connection to all the parents and the trauma, for all parties, just might be lowered a touch.
But that would be a little Hollywood, wouldn't it? Not very realistic. Why yes, I am an adoptee who needs more friggin' therapy, CAN YOU TELL? sigh....
One outcome I hope happens, is that the Doctors, the clinic, and anyone involved in the mix-up, gets sued into bankruptcy, and loses everything, including their licenses to practice medicine.
Posted by: Aurelia at Sep 21, 2009 4:27:16 PM
I saw an interesting follow up that the family is planning to move forward with a sarrogate so that they can have their fourth child. Apparently, due to the money the clinic is paying them to avoid a HUGE lawsuit, it is paid for. Still, what a horrible situation - talk about stress!
Posted by: Louise at Sep 21, 2009 4:29:17 PM
I could not have terminated in that case, as hard as it would have been to carry a baby to term that I knew I had to give up. I'd also feel really guilty if I were the other couple, but that's becasue I'm Catholic and a freak and everything makes me feel guilty.
As someone who has had two premature babies (28 and 30 weeks) due to pre-eclampsia, I can't get past why the hell she was trying for a fourth to begin with. I desperately wanted a third, and DH and I had always planned for a third. But we took a good long look at the risks and decided it wasn't worth potentially leaving the two healthy beautiful children I have motherless because of my desire for another. But I'm sure I'll get hell for that statement.
Posted by: emmay at Sep 21, 2009 4:30:09 PM
I saw that segment on the today show this morning...it blew me away. I can't even wrap my head around what they must be going through. Thank God they already have children and this isn't the first baby she's ever carried to term.
Could I do it? Probably, but I don't have HELLP, so it's a different story. I think that my husband would have a rough time with me carrying another person's child if it could threaten my life.
What she is doing may seem crazy to some people, but I found her very real and extremely brave.
Posted by: june at Sep 21, 2009 4:41:23 PM
I'm with DD on this. It wasn't her error, it was the hospital's. And if the pregnancy killed her wouldn't the person who implanted the embryo have some responsibility for that? How could they even call her and tell her?! "ummm...I'm sorry but there's been a terrible mistake that's might slightly inconvenience you for the next nine months....at least!"
Posted by: Amy at Sep 21, 2009 4:46:40 PM
Before the fact? As in volunteering to do so? Absolutely not.
After the fact - as in her case? Without a doubt.
Posted by: Abby at Sep 21, 2009 4:48:15 PM
Wow. I can't imagine what I would do. Endangering my life or compromising my values...and no real benefit either way.
Posted by: a at Sep 21, 2009 4:51:44 PM
Those were her only two choices?! I find that incredulous. Is there an "oops" clause in fertility clinic contracts?
Posted by: Kelly at Sep 21, 2009 5:12:05 PM
Julie - I knew you would write thoughtfully about this - and as always, you did.
I don't think any of us TRULY know what choice(s) we would make ahead of time. I only know that I hope I could handle it with half the grace that they have shown. I've known about it for several months, as I'm honored to call her a friend.
Even having known about it, I was awe struck watching the interview today, and how they expressed themselves. And find myself thinking about them - ALL of them (the Savages, the baby, the biological parents) - constantly today. As I'm sure I will through the heart-wrenching days to come.
Posted by: Emily at Sep 21, 2009 5:32:17 PM
Oh my. What a mess. I agree with Abby. Before the fact, no. After the fact, probably yes.
Nobody wins here, do they? I keep thinking of the biological parents. If the clinic rang me to tell me someone was carrying my baby and I had better get ready for another one later this year, that would probably be, very seriously, the end of my mental health. The way I feel now, I just would not want that baby. And yet it would be 'mine' and a full sibling to my children and I am not sure I could give it up.
Awful, just awful.
Posted by: chaletgirl at Sep 21, 2009 6:07:32 PM
I saw the story on msnbc and was blown away. A woman who had two premature kids due to HELLP goes to the clinic thinking she and her husband are doing right by the last of their own 5 embryos (which was their intent) according to their religious beliefs, ends up pg with another couple's child and has to face a pregnancy and it's implications for her very life. Thank goodness they are getting counseling!
I didn't have HELLP. I had pregnancy induced hypertension and 8 weeks of bedrest due to low amniotic fluid. A horrid induction followed by a cesarean and a bad recovery. That my child came out unscathed still shocks me. Most days I can't imagine going through it all again, even for another joyous child I'd get to keep. I would not, could not, do it for someone else. I'm not made for it and my own little family of three wouldn't survive it. No way no how. And it would crush me to have to make that choice.
Posted by: Sarah at Sep 21, 2009 6:14:53 PM
Oh not just no but fuck no.
Posted by: CharmingBitch at Sep 21, 2009 6:15:24 PM
That's completely unbelievable. I don't know what I would do. I personally wouldn't want to risk my life for another persons child, but she's been carrying the baby for awhile right? I mean, it would feel like mine, my baby that kicked, my baby that I saw on the ultrasound, there would be an attachment there that couldn't just be written off because, oops, not mine after all. I would fight to keep the baby.
It seems like there would be precedent for this, doesn't there? I mean sperm donors can't just pop back up years later and get visitation rights (right? or can they, cause that would be weird) wouldn't this sort of fall into the same category?
Posted by: Kitty at Sep 21, 2009 6:42:37 PM
I too want to know what her choices actually were, legally. Don't believe she could have opted to keep the baby, no matter what her desires. Choose to terminate, yes, but not choose to keep. It's not her baby.
Posted by: Jeanne at Sep 21, 2009 6:42:37 PM
She was willing to risk her own life, to risk leaving her own children without a mother, in order to have a baby. I think the situation is horrible, but in the end, the risk is the same regardless of whose baby it is. Is your own baby worth taking the risk, but someone else's isn't? Not in my book. But that's me. I wouldn't fault someone who chose to terminate.
Posted by: Jill at Sep 21, 2009 7:13:10 PM
Jeez, I cannot even imagine this happening. But I don't think I would terminate. It just kind of seems like making a bad situation worse.
But I'd definitely sue the shit outta the clinic.
Posted by: Carrie @ Who Knew? at Sep 21, 2009 7:22:34 PM
Jeez, I cannot even imagine this happening. But I don't think I would terminate. It just kind of seems like making a bad situation worse.
But I'd definitely sue the shit outta the clinic.
Posted by: Carrie @ Who Knew? at Sep 21, 2009 7:22:34 PM
Jeez, I cannot even imagine this happening. But I don't think I would terminate. It just kind of seems like making a bad situation worse.
But I'd definitely sue the shit outta the clinic.
Posted by: Carrie @ Who Knew? at Sep 21, 2009 7:22:34 PM
I wouldn't have felt the same obligation to transfer any remaining embryos, after three HELLP pregnancies -- for me, the ethical cost of donating the embryos to science would not be as great as the ethical cost of risking my life in another pregnancy -- so it's hard for me to feel my way toward the Savages' situation in the first place.
I honestly don't know what I'd do. I'd like to think I'd make the same choice she did. Although -- the thought of risking my life on a pregnancy that will only end in loss? I don't know.
It wouldn't for a second occur to me to try to keep someone else's biological child, though. I'd imagine myself as the biological parent, and imagine how it would feel to know that someone else was trying to claim my child, and I could NEVER do that.
Posted by: Jody at Sep 21, 2009 7:25:39 PM
Uh, just to be clear, the question of who has what claims on embryos, from a "that's my child" POV, is obviously dependent on the parents'/donors' intentions. If the biological family had intended for their embryos to be used in the clinic's donor program, that would be a completely different story.
Posted by: Jody at Sep 21, 2009 7:29:06 PM
Wow, how heartbreaking.
Posted by: Twisted Cinderella at Sep 21, 2009 7:41:15 PM
If I got the wrong embryos I would carry them and give them to the biological parents.
However, I don't know what I would do because of the health situation. Risking my children being without a mother? I don't know.
But I honestly don't think I could terminate someone else's longed for child. I've been there myself. It's likely I would do it and hope the good kharma would keep me alive.
Posted by: Lisa V at Sep 21, 2009 7:49:31 PM
Oh, bloody hellfire.
That's just awful.
I don't know what I would do. While I am staunchly pro-choice, and have chosen to end a pregnancy with a truly dismal prognosis before, I don't think I could do so in this situation. Not a normal, healthy baby.
But it pulls at the heartstrings...
g
Posted by: geohde at Sep 21, 2009 9:19:02 PM
I would have terminated the pregnancy without apology and without regret.
We got our son after years of trying and never concieved again inspite of trying for many more years.
To have concieved again, to have another high risk pregnancy (putting my one child's mother at risk) and then to give the baby to someone else?
No, absolutely not. It makes my heart ache and brings tears to my eyes to even think about it.
Something is bothering me about the way this woman is being viewed as someone to be in awe of and admired. As if not doing it is failing to live up to some gold standard of womanhood. It reminds me of how women who willingly die during childbirth are made Saints but those who choose to save their own lives are to be pitied at best and condemned at worse.
Posted by: Kathleen at Sep 21, 2009 10:07:42 PM
I think it would be important to know that in most states, the woman who gives birth to the baby is considered the mother, even in cases of surrogacy. The couple who had their embryos transferred in error will actually have to adopt Carolyn's baby.
Please bear with me since my info on surrogacy laws is limited to the research I had done a few years ago as well as per my RE when we discussed it as an option.
After mulling this over most of the day, I started to see how even with the clusterfuck of medical mistakes, this turns into a win-win situation: the biological parents get a healthy baby, even if it wasn't in their cards (an oops pregnancy??); and the Savages will have more than enough from the settlements to have their next baby safely through a surrogate.
Posted by: DD at Sep 21, 2009 10:09:36 PM
Adding on that the answer of "no and I'd keep the baby" is a non-answer. This is not their child, it is someone else's child.
The only options are terminate or carry to term/release child to it's legal parents.
Posted by: Kathleen at Sep 21, 2009 10:14:46 PM
What recourse would the biological parents have if the Savages HAD chose to terminate? What if that embryo was their last chance for their own biological child? Were they notified at the same time as the Savages? Did they have a say in the matter?
The whole story makes my head -- and my heart -- hurt.
Posted by: Lisa at Sep 21, 2009 10:21:29 PM
If I had HELLP, the hard part is the decision to get pregnant again. Once I chose that path, I would not terminate after learning that it is someone else's child. I would carry and give the other couple their child.And I might agree to some actions on the part of the clinic in lieu of a suit:
1. no fees for this cycle, everything paid is refunded
2. the FET for the other couple is free should they decide to try again
3. For the next 10 years the clinic will give a free fresh cycle to one person/couple based on criteria to be determined
4. they pay for my surrogate
Well, you get the picture...
Posted by: Paz at Sep 21, 2009 10:45:55 PM
They are an amazing couple. I know I couldn't terminate if I were in that situation but I would do what Paz said...
"1. no fees for this cycle, everything paid is refunded
2. the FET for the other couple is free should they decide to try again
3. For the next 10 years the clinic will give a free fresh cycle to one person/couple based on criteria to be determined
4. they pay for my surrogate"
Posted by: Kristin at Sep 21, 2009 10:53:31 PM
it would be a heartbreaking choice, but after early, severe preeclampsia in my last pregnancy and a baby born at 30 weeks, I wouldn't risk my dying and my two children growing up motherless to carry any pregnancy to term at this point--of course, it would depend on what a specialist might tell me were my chances at avoiding seizures, multiple organ failure and death, and all, but i don't think i could carry ANY pregnancy to term-my biological embryo or another couple's (keeping in mind that in my case, very early and severe preeclampsia is very likely to recur in subsequent pregnancies).
It is also my understanding that in most states if you give birth to a baby and you are married at the time, you and your husband are legally the baby's parents until you sign away your parental rights after the birth. It seems this mom has decided that it would be wrong for her to try to keep this baby, but i could understand someone else in her place making a different decision.
Posted by: lulu at Sep 21, 2009 10:56:27 PM
Kathleen, I hear you. I guess where my own awe comes from is that these people are truly walking the walk, you know? Just like someone — you or I — would be who didn't continue the pregnancy. (I hope you know I would be the very first to defend someone who chose that. I am vocal about such matters, sometimes to my great detriment.)
I understand your uneasiness, and I even share it; I felt weird as I examined my own feelings about this, being unaccustomed to feeling much empathy for the whole every-cell-is-sacred position. But I don't see respect as a zero-sum kind of thing; I don't think admiration for one choice presumes condemnation for another, and I certainly didn't intend to imply that.
Posted by: Julie at Sep 21, 2009 11:02:57 PM
And, DD, in one way it's win-win, but in another – in the sense that the baby isn't the only goal but the pregnancy as well — it's not. I presume Carolyn Savage really wanted to bear her and her husband's baby, and now that's no longer possible. And although we assume the other couple are glad to have another child, they, too, have lost a link that many (most?) people who pursue ART believe, at least in the beginning, is very important.
Posted by: Julie at Sep 21, 2009 11:10:39 PM
I have no idea what I would do. I respect their decision - it was theirs to make.
But I admit at the religious beliefs statement making me squeamish. Are they Catholic? Because the Catholic church forbids IVF.
But that goes along with my feelings about the HOM situations. Your choice to carry, but don't throw God into it after using fertility treatments.
Posted by: Christine at Sep 21, 2009 11:22:59 PM
